Rallycross classes thin on the ground

[wilma]

thought i'd start a dedicated thread instead of hijacking the Mallory Park BRC 22nd July[/URL] thread...

Originally Posted by BertMk2

So we've got a 6R4 back in action Good to see some of the older machines making a re-appearance. Got to say though that the classes all look pretty thin on the ground don't they? I think it just highlights the problems - too many classes, not enough competitors? Even the RX150's are looking a bit light on entries for this one and they've had good grids recently. Still time for some more entries I suppose.

i'm still getting to grips with Rallycross (this is my first season for actually getting to races rather than watching from the comfort of my sofa and i'm looking forward to Mallory Park) so can anyone suggest what would be the easiest/most obvious classes to merge if numbers were too thin on the ground to create competative races?

from what i've seen this season, BMW Mini's have been nearly pointless to run, Minicross seems to be suffering too. what classes would be best suited for them if their own classes were to disappear?

would the classic Rallycross 82-87 and pre 82 run together?

it's a shame that stock hatch havent gained more drivers, bearing in mind it may be the cheapest class to run. Would they be the most difficult to merge with another class?

as much as it'd be a pain for drivers to make alterations/modifications to their cars if in the future some classes are dropped - race organisers have an obligation to provide adequate competition for the drivers and the paying spectators/sponsors... does anyone think there is a realistic chance that in the near furture some classes will be dropped in order to provide greater competition?

[schanche]

Originally Posted by wilma

thought i'd start a dedicated thread instead of hijacking the Mallory Park BRC 22nd July[/URL] thread...



i'm still getting to grips with Rallycross (this is my first season for actually getting to races rather than watching from the comfort of my sofa and i'm looking forward to Mallory Park) so can anyone suggest what would be the easiest/most obvious classes to merge if numbers were too thin on the ground to create competative races?

from what i've seen this season, BMW Mini's have been nearly pointless to run, Minicross seems to be suffering too. what classes would be best suited for them if their own classes were to disappear?

would the classic Rallycross 82-87 and pre 82 run together?

it's a shame that stock hatch havent gained more drivers, bearing in mind it may be the cheapest class to run. Would they be the most difficult to merge with another class?

as much as it'd be a pain for drivers to make alterations/modifications to their cars if in the future some classes are dropped - race organisers have an obligation to provide adequate competition for the drivers and the paying spectators/sponsors... does anyone think there is a realistic chance that in the near furture some classes will be dropped in order to provide greater competition?

Nope!
None of them have got the ******** to do away with classes!
To many choices ruin it for perspective Competitors, no proper class structure what so ever which has been the problem since the late 90's.
Major restructure is needed bite the bullet run a couple of more years with the current classes tell competitors that in 2015 this is how it is gonna be prepare for then! There decision then compete plan ahead or not.

[AndyS]

I think the current economic climate is not exactly helping matters. There's a lot of cars out there but people can't afford to run them. I have to agree though that there needs to be a fairly major consolidation. Everybody needs to be together in one championship or at least all events to be joint affairs, if nothing else to get round the lack of available tracks/track time.

I also think some fairly tough decisions need to be taken regarding the various classes. There are simply too many for the number of drivers out there at the moment. I think I'm correct in saying there is currently 13 across the BRC/BTRDA/MDA and thats not including the proposed CDMC winter series. I personally think they should be aiming at preferable 6 but more realistically 8 between them.

There was a thread up recently regarding Finnish Rallycross, which has an infinitley more sensible approach to the classes. Sadly, its highly unlikely we'll ever see something akin to it in the UK though. Hopefully, the various organisers can see whats going on and will feel the need to come together and do something about it. Here's hoping.

[wilma]

Originally Posted by AndyS

I personally think they should be aiming at preferable 6 but more realistically 8 between them.

what would your preferable 6 be?

[schanche]

Originally Posted by wilma

what would your preferable 6 be?

4 more than enough!

Obviously Super Cars ERC regs no need for any other 4wd class, if you want to compete in 4wd then you would want it to be with the Super cars and drivers always have the chance of sneaking a top placing in races and if sponsors and money allowed take part in the Hme ERC..

Super national!
RWD again ERC regs (In need of more Power though)

Super Mods anything goes limit engine size restrict with Success Ballast. Bring back the days Ingenious clever engineering.

Super 1600 waste of time!

Junior catergory definatly not the Crap the ERC want to run with.

[wilma]

I totally agree with the point in running to ERC regs as it could produce more successful British drivers on European soil.

surely Stock Hatch has to always be an available option, otherwise how would eager drivers on a tighter budget ever find a way in to the sport?

as a spectator, instead of 13 different classes with few competitors, i'd like to see packed classes of the following:

1-Stock Hatch
2-Suzuki Swifts
3-a Junior class such as Swift Juniors or similar
4-a class that bridges the gap between Stock Hatch and Super National in both terms of budget and mods, so either Hot Hatch or Super 1600 or a new variation which is similar to both
5-Super National
6-Super Cars

with Classic Rallycross (inc Minicross cars) as a potential showcase for some rounds

i'm not too fussed about the RX150's, they look like they could be more fun to watch on much smaller tracks than those used for Rallycross.

[schanche]

Originally Posted by schanche

4 more than enough! (Amended to 5)

Obviously Super Cars ERC regs no need for any other 4wd class, if you want to compete in 4wd then you would want it to be with the Super cars and drivers always have the chance of sneaking a top placing in races and if sponsors and money allowed take part in the Hme ERC..

Super national!
RWD again ERC regs (In need of more Power though)

Super Mods anything goes limit engine size restrict with Success Ballast. Bring back the days Ingenious clever engineering.

Super 1600 waste of time!

Senior/Junior catergory definatly not the Crap the ERC want to run with.

oops sorry my Error!
Senior catergory should be the same as the Junior's One make series progress from Jnr to Snr and then up too the main Class (Like the swifts drivers now progressing) Build or buy your own learn from early age! Buy and sell or build or share within the catergory

And just my Opinion Stock Hatch! Waste of time underpowered banger stock racing!

[sashchris]

Yep 4 classes would do it for me,
As to what you would call them (super this, super that) not bothered but put simply
Class A. Super cars as we have now
Class B. 2WD over 1600cc anything goes, super mods,super nationals as is now a la finnish rallycross
Class C. 2WD up to 1600cc tighter regs ie cars pretty much as manufactured etc so as is now this would include swifts, stockhatch,BMW mini,super 1600, hot hatch
Class D. Junior category
NO age limit, I mean WHAT is the point of turning competitors away just because they have cars over ten years old , cars that a lot of rallycross fans would still like to be able to see !

And then rallycross needs to be run again by people who love the sport and are able to run the sport in the interests of (in no particular order)
A Rallycross as a whole
B. Rallycross competitors
C. Rallycross fans
Too many categories have arisen not because competitors or fans wanted them but because people wanted to use rallycross for their own means , RX150s never anything to do with rallycross but needed a sport to market their product so a category was made !
Suzuki swifts, Suzuki hasn't put anything into rallycross but the creation of a championship provides a nice revenue stream for someone.
Too many agendas other than the good of rallycross

[chunder]

Some ofthe ideas proposed here are very good.

I am not really sure why the classes thinned out so much.

The pointless battole between the two rallycross championships a few years ago did not help the situation at all, and did what I thought it would and made rallycross a very, very thinned out sport.

It was like that beforehand really after being badlt run by a succession of people and not the right sort of people.

As for classes, the old system worked really well, simple'ish cars for a start, running up to slightly more modified.

A few cars ruined this system, Evans Micra and the Exige. They amde most modified cars obselete hence the propensity now for pointless mid engined cars that cant be used anywhere else and are expensive.

You do need a starter class, and a low capacity limit for a modifed class

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by schanche

Major restructure is needed bite the bullet run a couple of more years with the current classes tell competitors that in 2015 this is how it is gonna be prepare for then! There decision then compete plan ahead or not.

Fully agreed. Its obviously going to be hard for some teams/drivers to make the transisition but it is surely the best move for the sport.

The idea of copying the European classes is great on paper but (statement of the obviously really) the cost of building an ERC spec car, regardless of the class, is too high. Having said that - and I'd like to know what everyone else thinks - but having classes that allow the use of ERC spec cars would be good though, as it means those competitors who do want to build a car for use in both the BRC and ERC are able to.

If it could be reduced down to as little as 4 classes that would be excellent, as if you consider the number of entrants spread across all the classes we have now (and even if only a portion of those were to make the jump to a new set of regulations), you should have full grids.

The RX150's have their moments, but I personally could do without them.

[Pozi]

I am in agreement with the majority about simplifying the classes however I think removing the RX150s would be a mistake. While I agree they have little to do with rallycross as a support race they provide good entertainment with close racing.

As a paying spectator (and without us there would be no racing either) I would rather watch a full grid of RX150's and a decent battle for positions than the sometimes 2 car Swift Junior or BMW Mini finals.

I only have to look at my 5 year old son as a barometer of what is interesting and he gets most excited about seeing the Supercars, Super Nationals and RX150s.

[Cryos]

Originally Posted by schanche

4 more than enough!

Obviously Super Cars ERC regs no need for any other 4wd class, if you want to compete in 4wd then you would want it to be with the Super cars and drivers always have the chance of sneaking a top placing in races and if sponsors and money allowed take part in the Hme ERC..

Super national!
RWD again ERC regs (In need of more Power though)

Super Mods anything goes limit engine size restrict with Success Ballast. Bring back the days Ingenious clever engineering.

Super 1600 waste of time!

Junior category defiantly not the Crap the ERC want to run with.

Its odd to see the ERC rules suggestion be so welcomed the same forum and people were so opposed to it only a few years back... a sign of the times for sure.

I do like the suggestions, i think there is definite evidence that people just are not interested in racing with overpowered light Supermods because there's no competition, bring in success ballast and as you say it should sort it out.

Im not sold on the RX150's to be honest, there was so much hype about them and so much defensive PR before hand that when it fell flat on its back side nobody was surprised really. After letting the RX150 class open up here in Ireland i dont think we even seen one of them over here, perhaps though its the wrong time for them.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by wilma

what would your preferable 6 be?

Very much open to everybodys personal opinion really. I like the French and Finnish class systems but neither will happen in the Uk so not really worth discussing. Realistically, I'd have two top divisions, two middle divisions and two clubman classes.

Super Car
Super National
Super 1600 (it seems to be gaining traction quite quickly. Ridge and Knowles excepted there seems to be a lot of drivers up grading their Saxo's etc hence classing it as a middle class. Granted in time it may develop beyond that)
Swifts (Don't like the things one bit, but its popularity cannot be denied. I do wonder about its longevity though)
Super Mod
Stock 1600 class

I love the idea of Retro but I'm not convinced its going to get going. The RX150's may have to go. Minicross seems to have had its day. Against most people's views I'd drop juniors. At generally 3 or 4 cars a meeting it does not seem to have enough interest. A bit difficult justifying kicking RX150's out and keeping Juniors when the numbers are so low. As I said though just my opinion.

[Hickey]

why is there a BTRDA modified and a MSA modified? Is it to do with licences? We could save ourselves a lot of headache by running these two together and harmonising any rules that are getting in the way.

As I put in the Mallory thread. I'd just lump all the 2wd cars together. It worked really well at the Superprix that I went to see. You then get about 5 finals of 10 cars each and they are all quite evenly matched races. It also makes the finals more "special". there's no point having a final if you have seen 3 heats with exactly the same cars in each heat. When you have 10 different classes, this is inevitable.

Supercar
2wd (with different trophies for <1600 and >1600).
Juniors
RX150.

[quantic]

Sorry to butt in, but I'd just like to add my view which is as an 'interested outsider'! I first went to see Rallycross with my Dad in the early eighties at Lydden and continued to go all throught the 'glory years' of group B and loved it.. Once I grew up a bit I started racing on circuits in various tin tops from the mid nineties, but always kept an eye on rallycross as something I'd like to do one day. The problem is that there never seemed to be a class that fitted me-stockhatch was full of grids of cars which were probably great fun but dull dull dull to watch, but the next class up seemed a bit 'out of reach'. Then all this nonsense with the organisors going their own ways happened and that just made things a million timed worse-loads of classes, all half empty. To be honest I've totally lost interest in it-i used to love going to Lydenn on a bank holiday or Brands when they used it and would have loved to get involved but now it seems to have lost its way and I've given up with it, and bought a Formula Ford instead..
Shame, and such a waste of a great genre (all IMHO opinion of course..)