Vettel down to 5th after penalty - Page 4 - 10-Tenths Motorsport Forum

TrapezeArtist · 22 Jul 2012, 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

The run-off areas just aren't punishing the drivers enough, but I would definitely stop short of Crocodile infested ponds.

Now, there' a thought!

The Snout · 22 Jul 2012, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Maybe the regulations were different back then?

Where they different back in Bahrain 2012 ? Hamilton all 4 wheels off when passing Rosberg, only a few months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC05YfPIBVc

TrapezeArtist · 22 Jul 2012, 22:58

Why do the FIA consider putting two wheels off to be OK? If the track is the track, drivers should drive on the track. Indeed, why have kerbs? Drivers just treat them as part of the track. Put down a strip of tarmac and that's the track. Beyond that, put something that is not tarmac. It's not rocket surgery!

MGDavid · 22 Jul 2012, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

.......Alonso used that line to put the Ferrari on pole...

read the regulations, Alonso wasn't overtaking anyone at the time;

Marbot · 22 Jul 2012, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

In 2005, there was no gravel run off at turn 6, exactly the same as it is today !

But the majority of corners had gravel traps then, so there was never really much of a problem.

Hamilton passing Rosberg on the grass at Bahrain was an example of why you now seem to have been deemed to have won the position by only needing to get your front wheels alongside the car in fronts rear wheels.

Marbot · 22 Jul 2012, 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGDavid

read the regulations, Alonso wasn't overtaking anyone at the time;

'For the avoidance of doubt':

"FIA sporting regulation 20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason."

The third paragraph says it all. The fourth paragraph is very much open to interpretation i.e. 'It started raining' 'I had a puncture' 'My tyres were worn out' 'I was pushed off by another driver' 'I slid on some oil' 'I drive an HRT' etc and so on.

ptclaus98 · 22 Jul 2012, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Snout

Where they different back in Bahrain 2012 ? Hamilton all 4 wheels off when passing Rosberg, only a few months ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC05YfPIBVc

Hamilton was only there because Rosberg tried to put him in the stands.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 23 Jul 2012, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purist

If you put wheels off, and maintain your gaps, you've "gained an advantage". It may not be a position, but if it was grass, or a wall, you would have lost time.

If it was a wall it would have been either race over, or don't attempt the pass in the first place.

QnickFTW · 23 Jul 2012, 00:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rfD8emYrKs

Kimi got away overtaking not 1 but 2 cars with all four wheels off the track, you can see both Kubica and Glock clearly ahead of him going into the first corner but magically behind him coming out of it....

At that time stewards said Kimi was avoiding contact but refused the same argument coming from Vettel... odd.

deeks6 · 23 Jul 2012, 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnickFTW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rfD8emYrKs

Kimi got away overtaking not 1 but 2 cars with all four wheels off the track, you can see both Kubica and Glock clearly ahead of him going into the first corner but magically behind him coming out of it....

At that time stewards said Kimi was avoiding contact but refused the same argument coming from Vettel... odd.

there are so many examples of inconsistency in these cases of "off the track" passes,blocks etc. One only has to look at the Hulkenberg/Webber from Monza some time to see the most ludicrous example of getting away with murder.
IMO, the penalty is very harsh on Seb - even if you find him guilty of anything why do three other drivers get an advantage out of it? Pure BS

wnut · 23 Jul 2012, 01:08

Where did Jenson leave a car width?
In fact he deviated from the racing line and just drove Vettel off the circuit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY3idMT4Dus

"IMO, the penalty is very harsh on Seb - even if you find him guilty of anything why do three other drivers get an advantage out of it? Pure BS"

Agree with Deeks6 above.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 23 Jul 2012, 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

Where did Jenson leave a car width?
In fact he deviated from the racing line and just drove Vettel off the circuit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY3idMT4Dus

"IMO, the penalty is very harsh on Seb - even if you find him guilty of anything why do three other drivers get an advantage out of it? Pure BS"

Agree with Deeks6 above.

I agree with the inconsistency but in this case Vettel ran wide and off the track and took advantage of it. Why didn't he back off?

Razzzor · 23 Jul 2012, 01:48

Yeah but would he have gotten a drive-through, or would the stewards have informed him to let Button back past? That would be the fair thing to do.

Giving a post race time penalty of 20 seconds seems completely unfair to me... what did he gain by going off track there, maybe a couple tenths?

The problem is Vettel didn't have to go off track, Button looked like he was going to give Vettel room, although once he didn't take it Button promptly used the full race track and wheelspun out of the corner. At that point maybe Vettel could argue that Button left no room.

But yeah, Vettel shouldn't have run so far off track. Not sure why he would take such a gamble.

The other problem is, what's the difference between doing it during a pass and doing it on every other lap? You'll gain the same amount if there's an advantage there, so shouldn't every car in the field that ran off consistently be given a penalty? Why only penalise when it's during a pass, if it's the same advantage?

Now the rules, do they say you can't gain a position by running all four wheels off track, or you can't gain a position by short-cutting the track? Because going wide off the corner isn't a short-cut.

I don't think he should have penalised that much. If it's not in the rules to swap the positions back, then no penalty. 20secs is far too harsh.

Richard Casto · 23 Jul 2012, 02:43

I missed the race but watched a replay of the pass and it seems pretty straight forward to me. It was a tough pass to attempt (outside on hairpin), and it just didn't work out. Even if you go with Vettel's comments in that he didn't know where Button was so he went wide, he had the correct option of not completing the pass off track.

What I think happens is that in the heat of the moment drivers think they can justify their actions. And maybe inconsistent application of the rules in the past has trained them to think in this way. The problem is that it clearly is a risky strategy and in a blatant case like this (late in race and podium positions) you end up with the magnifying glass on you.

I think the outcome was spot on and would expect howls of protest if it had not played out as it did.

Richard

**Peter Mallett** · 23 Jul 2012, 02:45

Actually the rules say, you can't run off the track, period. Yup inconsistently applied but I believe, for many reasons,the FIA is beginning to enforce the rules in all events in an effort to stop all categories from flexing them. It's happening in GTs, touring cars, historics, you name it.

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