Dauer/TWR Porsches

[Hawkwood]

Hello, just wanting to ask how many times Porsche have won at Le Mans.
Seems pretty obvious, except that the Dauer and TWR cars weren't built by Porsche, and the TWR started out as a Jag iirc.

After some fruitless searching I decided to ask here if anyone knows of anywhere that catagorically states whether these two cars are counted as Porsches or not? Everywhere I've seen has the dreaded asterisk*
I'm just turning up contradictory stuff at the moment.

Thanks for any help!

[deggis]

Officially Porsche seems to count them.

e.g. http://www.porsche.com/italy/motorsp...lms/24hlemans/

So does ACO:

http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/race/legend.html

[isynge]

I make no claims to being definitive on this - but both of these felt like Porsche wins to me at the time, and I've not been minded to really change my mind since.

The Dauer was gamesmanship through and through, but undeniably a 962. The WSC-95 has been a little diminished as the full TWR legacy has come out, but still, to my mind, unquestionably Porsche victories.

I wonder what I'd have thought if in the 80s it'd been a Joest 936C or Kremer CK-5 winning - would they have been Porsche wins? I'm less sure. Similarly I'm certain that had it gone the other way in 95 it would have been a Courage result rather than Porsche. Subjective? Probably.

Genuinely interested in what the consensus on this ends up being.

[porman]

The Dauer cars had Porsche roots to say the least. Porsche saw that there was a chance at overall victory so they came in and lent more than a helping hand.
I count the Dauer win as a Porsche win.

The TWR story is much more complex. It was more of a Porsche powered chassis with Porsche development work. I don't really count it as an official Porsche factory car in that Porsche found what they deemed to be a suitable platform that would require less time and money to adapt into a potential race winner. Porsche powered, definitely.

[Salamus]

I agree with porman, the TWR cars were powered by Porsche so therefore, they are Porsche victories. Think of it like F1, Renault has won two constructor championships as a team, however, their engines have won 11 champions.

Here is what I want to know. Does Porsche recognize the 2010 Daytona 24 victory or not? The car was powered by a Porsche but the engine wasn't built by Porsche.

[MulsanneMike]

The most important thing is that both the Dauer and TWR efforts were completely funded by Porsche...Porsche approached Dauer about using the Dauer 962 as the basis for their '94 effort (given the regulatory loophole) and Porsche funded the TWR-Porsche efforts as well as providing design support. There is no doubt either effort were official Porsche factory programs.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by isynge

I wonder what I'd have thought if in the 80s it'd been a Joest 936C or Kremer CK-5 winning - would they have been Porsche wins? I'm less sure.

The 1984 and 1985 races were won by a Porsche 956, but built/modified by Joest, which was a privateer team then. I don't think those victories are lessoned by not being factory wins.

The 1979 win by the 935 again was not the factory car, but the privately built and developed Kremer car. It is still a Porsche win.

The Ferrari win in 1965 by the the privately entered 250LM of NART is a Ferrari win. I guess there isn't the question mark on that because NART only prepared the car and didn't build or modify it.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by skycafe

The 1984 and 1985 races were won by a Porsche 956, but built/modified by Joest, which was a privateer team then. I don't think those victories are lessoned by not being factory wins.

The 1979 win by the 935 again was not the factory car, but the privately built and developed Kremer car. It is still a Porsche win.

The Ferrari win in 1965 by the the privately entered 250LM of NART is a Ferrari win. I guess there isn't the question mark on that because NART only prepared the car and didn't build or modify it.

I don't think there's any question about the private 956 victories - or spreading the net more widely, events like Joest winning at Dijon in 1989 - these are Porsche wins.

With the hypothetical early 80s cases I threw out there (and I guess '82 was the only realistic shot) had the Joest and Kremer chassis deviated sufficiently from the original Porsche roots to be seen as non-Porsche vehicles? By same token they certainly weren't Porsche funded developments.

More recent acid test - was the 1995 Daytona winner a Porsche?

[Dario911]

Porsche has won Le Mans 16 times. TWR and 962 Dauer are considered Porsche at the same way of GT1, 917, etc. That's because Porsche has developed the car, and engines were (obviously!) made by the german manufacturer, notwithstanding they were derived from different projects.
So all Porsche wins, are attributed to Queen of Endurance!

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by isynge

With the hypothetical early 80s cases I threw out there (and I guess '82 was the only realistic shot) had the Joest and Kremer chassis deviated sufficiently from the original Porsche roots to be seen as non-Porsche vehicles? By same token they certainly weren't Porsche funded developments.

More recent acid test - was the 1995 Daytona winner a Porsche?

Interesting you mention 1995 Daytona, because I thought instantly of 1984 Daytona (March-Porsche). To be sure on the year I took a quick look at Wikipedia-interestingly they list the March-Porsche as a March win, and the Kremer Porsche win as a Kremer win. IMSA was consistent during that time about listing engine first, then chassis, so 1984 would have been the Porsche-March (but they were desperate to not have Porsche keep winning).

BUT, that March was built and developed by Al Holbert and certainly had some support from Porsche when built, and I don't think it was a total orphan when run by Kreepy Krauly, even if it was just technical advice.

I just think of them as Porsche wins, but realize there are pitfalls.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

The most important thing is that both the Dauer and TWR efforts were completely funded by Porsche...Porsche approached Dauer about using the Dauer 962 as the basis for their '94 effort (given the regulatory loophole) and Porsche funded the TWR-Porsche efforts as well as providing design support. There is no doubt either effort were official Porsche factory programs.

Thanks for clarifying that Mike, I was convinced the Dauer win was definitely Porsches doing but wasnt too sure about the TWR Porsches.

[supermario21]

Originally Posted by rich07

Thanks for clarifying that Mike, I was convinced the Dauer win was definitely Porsches doing but wasnt too sure about the TWR Porsches.

Yeah, in fact had IMSA not been a bunch of tools, the TWR car would have probably won Daytona in 95 (as a Porsche works entry) and the 911 GT1's may have never been built, as that was the project Porsche moved on to after the TWR cars.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by supermario21

Yeah, in fact had IMSA not been a bunch of tools, the TWR car would have probably won Daytona in 95 (as a Porsche works entry) and the 911 GT1's may have never been built, as that was the project Porsche moved on to after the TWR cars.

Great bit of "what if" there, as it was 911 GT1 that opened the pandora's box of what a GT was which led to the Mercedes and ultimately Toyota interpretation of the rules.

Anyone want to take a stab at an alternative history with IMSA allowing the WSC-95 to run in 1995 as a point of departure?

[vincegail]

Norbert Singer certainly thinks the TWRs are Porsches as they have their own chapter 17 in his excellent book 24:16, which is about 16 Porsche wins at the Le Mans 24 Hours.

A few still available for only 20 GBP which is an absolute steal in my eyes. Grab a bargain of one of the best motorsport books!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/24-Mans-Hour...3467909&sr=8-1

(and no I am not one of the sellers! )

[isynge]

Originally Posted by vincegail

Norbert Singer certainly thinks the TWRs are Porsches as they have their own chapter 17 in his excellent book 24:16, which is about 16 Porsche wins at the Le Mans 24 Hours.

A few still available for only 20 GBP which is an absolute steal in my eyes. Grab a bargain of one of the best motorsport books!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/24-Mans-Hour...3467909&sr=8-1

(and no I am not one of the sellers! )

24:16 absolutely one of the must haves on the bookshelf of any Le Mans fan - perhaps in a different thread we should discuss what else should be on one?

[The Badger]

Dauer was 2 modified 962 chassis ..... TWR was the basis for the WSC'95 ..... modded to a Porsche from a Mazda .... lol

[vincegail]

Actually, a Jaguar chassis. Mazda just used the same car and stuck their engine in. See also

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/JaguarXJR-14.html

[The Badger]

Yeah , I know that too ,

[RacingSportsCars]

It is neither important who built the chassis (otherwise for example Dallara would count many victories of the Audi), nor what was the car origin or roots (see Morgan LMP2 and now Alpine LMP2) but how they were actually homologated and called. Sometimes it is very difficult to make the correct distinction and sources, regardless if official or not, are pretty inconsistent in many ways.

It is definitely incorrect to count Dauer and TWR as a Porsche victory, unless you want to count engine manufacturers victories. Unfortunately even ACO is not quite consistent and last time I saw their stats, they counted them to Porsche as well. Porsche themselves would count it, it is logical. However in 1996-97 the winning car was not a Porsche, but TWR. The same two chassis become Porsche only in 1998.

I remember reading contemporary report about the Le Mans 1994. At one place they named debuting makes, among them the Dauer was mentioned. But in another page of the same article they counted it to another Porsche victory. Yes, it was run by Porsche factory team, with Porsche factory drivers with cars they were originally built as Porsche 962C chassis but still, they were not Porsches, and should not be counted as such. Just like factory Aston Martin in 2009 could not call their cars as Aston Martin as they were Lolas, though highly modified (unlike current Morgans and most probably Alpines).

Another story was Sauber-Mercedes win in 1989. I remember seeing official ACO stats. One year they counted both victories to Mercedes (i.e. 1952 and 1989), later they changed to Mercedes-Benz in 1952 and Sauber in 1989. A problem is that Saubers were officially renamed to Mercedes-Benz only in 1990.

I mentioned Alpine's return. It took me 30 years before I changed my mind about their 1978 victory, which I had believed belonged to Renault. Yes, Renault was the engine name and main sponsor or even owner, but the cars were actually Alpines. Long time I believed that they had been renamed as Renaults sometime during 1976-77, just like the Sauber became Mercedes-Benz in 1990 or TWR became Porsches in 1998. But according to my best knowledge and research, it had never happened and Alpine should be credited with the victory. And now with the Alpine coming back, it is seems to be confirmed. But back in 1978 and consequential years, it was all about Renault. Until somebody from the team contacted me a few years ago, I had no doubts about that. For the same reason I do not believe that the Dauer and TWR victories should belong to Porsche, they will be never accepted by my www.RacingSportsCars.com as such, where I prepare some very comprehensive statistics in the future. And I also believe that once some big manufacturer would match the number of true Porsche victories in Le Mans (currently only Audi has any realistic chance), they would argue about that. And if not, I would surely get in touch with them so that they forced the ACO to correct their statistics (of course they want to have famous names among their winners and Porsche sounds better than TWR or Dauer, just like in 1975 they often incorrectly put a Ford label on the Gulf victory - they were actually renamed Mirages and I believe became true Fords in 1979 only, though almost nobody cared as they were quite unsuccessful - today all agree that Ford has just 4 Le Mans victories).

Just reminded me a situation when GT40-based Mirage won the 1000 km Spa race in 1967 and it took some time before Ford, Mirage and FIA could settle on agreement who actually should score the points. By the same standards as I use on RSC website, FIA decided that Mirage is correct name, regardless the car started and ended life as a true Ford GT40.

Hopefully I replied and explained the original questions. They might be various opinions on this forum but rarely anybody took so much time and effort following these type of issues over the decades. I could continue much longer with IMSA's Eagle v. Toyotas, Nissans v. Lolas, or Japanese Group C Dome v. Tom's v. Toyota or Nissan v. March chaos... One of the matter I am not still quite sure are Autoexe entries of Riley & Scott and Kudzu, which seem to have been accepted by ACO. However I refused to recognize it as a separate manufacturer. Is anybody able to bring some real light into the subject - i.e. not just personal thoughts?

[RacingSportsCars]

Originally Posted by isynge

I make no claims to being definitive on this - but both of these felt like Porsche wins to me at the time, and I've not been minded to really change my mind since.

The Dauer was gamesmanship through and through, but undeniably a 962. The WSC-95 has been a little diminished as the full TWR legacy has come out, but still, to my mind, unquestionably Porsche victories.

I wonder what I'd have thought if in the 80s it'd been a Joest 936C or Kremer CK-5 winning - would they have been Porsche wins? I'm less sure. Similarly I'm certain that had it gone the other way in 95 it would have been a Courage result rather than Porsche. Subjective? Probably.

Genuinely interested in what the consensus on this ends up being.

I remember that in 1987 the very first reports claimed that Porsche took first four positions in Le Mans. Crazy journalists, I would say, nobody really ever doubted that Porsche-powered Cougars, were actually genuine Cougars and I was pleasantly surprised when read the full results with the Cougar listed on podium. But the Joest and Kremer 1982 Group C cars were true Porsches. Just like the 1980 Joest Porsche copy of 1977 factory 936 was officially called Porsche 908/80 and renamed as Porsche 936 in 1982, when the factory 936 effort was finally gone, the 1982 Group C version was a true Porsche. They had even Porsche factory number sequence 936-004 and 936-005 respectively. Would anybody doubt that in Le Mans 1980 Rondeau beat Porsche, and not Joest? I have even never heard such idea.

It was more difficult with the Kremer CK5. For a long time I believed that CK5 should be called Kremer or at least Kremer-Porsche but I can confirm from later research that it was a true Porsche make as well, and thus I removed any references to Kremer in the car designations. Back than in the 1980s it was common that even factory-built 956 and 962C to be officially entered under the team names, like Brun Porsche 956, Kremer SAT Porsche 962C, NewMan Joest Porsche 956, etc. But when the CK5 finished 6th (on points) in the WEC race, it was considered a Porsche, which is a clear proof. Unfortunately the Le Mans races discussed here (1978, 1989, 1994, 1996-1997) were never part of the manufacturers championship, so nobody really bothered to solve it out in a dispute with a clear independent conclusion, just like the mentioned Mirage-Ford battle for championship points in 1967. By the way, I believe that only true Kremer labelled car was the spyder K8.