Crystal Palace

[pirenzo]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
And here is a photo also from the front cover of Autosport of Crystal palace in 1969. Roger Nathan's Astra RNR1 on the grid with Chris Skeaping's Chevron B6 and a Porsche (910?)
behind.
Pity a Goodwood style revival can't happen at the Palace.
Far too dangerous for today's racing and a lot of the track no longer exists.

no, all but about 200 metres is still there

[Gnomex]

Originally posted by pirenzo
no, all but about 200 metres is still there

How recently was that? From the other posts it seems that much is now laid in cobble stones.

Crystal Palace was the first ever circuit I went to. My Dad took me a few times and we stood at North Tower Corner - I can still smell the Castrol R!!!

I remember feeling both nervous and excited as the cars came past. My favourites were the saloon car races - mainly Minis versus Escorts. I think it was Dave Brodie had a Mk 1 Escort in red with a gold stripe. Wonderful!

I also went to the circuit after they built the sports centre (by the back straight). My Dad was interested in boats as well and we went to look at dinghys in what was part of the hall. My brother and I used to go and play in the pits area and the paddock. We also played on the straight and walked round to the top end in the glade.

Anyone else got any news on the dear old place?

[Al Weyman]

And here is a photo also from the front cover of Autosport of Crystal palace in 1969. Roger Nathan's Astra RNR1 on the grid with Chris Skeaping's Chevron B6 and a Porsche (910?)

Well I was in Nathan's race team that day of the race but as I was a mechanic for the team but I can't see myself in the picture. We worked all night getting that car ready for the race. That one was fitted with the 2 litre BMW engine to have a go at catching the Chevrons and was making it's debut that day. I recognise all those people in the picture, the one standing was called Nick (can't remember his second name I think he came from Brighton and raced a Mini) and the little guy was David he went on to work for some F1 team I think. The car did'nt last long it shed an oil hose and blew the engine not good on it's debut. I also recognise the scottish girl with the blonde hair that was the company secretary.

[Rob29]

Nice to see this thread active again.Just had a thought;London mayor Ken Livingstone seems to have developed an interest in motor racing being held in London.Maybe he could apply pressure to the local council idiots?

[Gnomex]

I still look at the video I taped from the BBC "100 Greatest Sporting Moments" (I think that's what its called) of the F3 race featuring James Hunt and Dave Morgan. Nail-biting stuff from flag to flag with the punch up after the race was over. There is part of the race where a flag marshal stands right of the edge of the track at the slight left kink before North Tower Corner - no protection whatever!

[ss_collins]

yup living in crystal palace does give me up to date info. all(post war) intact apart from terrace straight (missing about 100m) and the section from north tower down to new link is 50% width.

pics elsewhere on here. A revival did run between 1997 and 2000until the council stopped it - pics at www.sevenoaksmotorclub.com

if you want to see the event return (we are trying to ressurect it) write to the local paper www.newsshopper.co.uk.

Ken's lot are not in charge of the park Bromley council are

[Vitesse]

Please can anyone point me towards a ready-made source for (or better still provide) pre-War handicap results from the Palace? I'm looking specifically for class handicaps which include a 1500cc supercharged section.

Even a list of dates on which these happened would be helpful, as I could then research them myself (eventually!)

And still pre-War, on the AIACR International Calendar for 1939, there was a London Grand Prix scheduled for Crystal Palace in September. Obviously, it never took place, but does anyone have any further details? I assume it was almost certainly a Voiturette race, but was it to be a scratch event or a handicap?

[Rob29]

1st London GP was on Jul 17 1937,2nd was Jun 26 1938.Both were voiturette races(1500cc)so I can only assume the '39 one would have been simlar.Date seems to have been switched with the Imperial Trophy which was in October in 37 & 38,but was held in 39 on Aug 26(last meeting in UK for 7yrs?)
As to handicaps,this is before I was born but I believe handicaps were a common feature of racing at that time.All meetings at the 'Palace were organized by the Road Racing Club,so it is likely there was a handicap at every meeting.Where to find results,I don't know.Does anyone still have pre-war programmes?

[Vitesse]

Thanks Rob, that's a start anyway. As far as I can see, the probable events are:

1937
I Crystal Palace Cup
I Imperial Trophy - ?? Oct
I London GP - 17 Jul
1938
II Coronation Trophy
II Crystal Palace Cup
II Imperial Trophy - ?? Oct
II London GP - 26 Jun
I Sydenham Trophy
1939
III Crystal Palace Cup
III Imperial Trophy - 26 Aug
II Sydenham Trophy

Can anyone fill in the missing dates?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Vitesse
Thanks Rob, that's a start anyway. As far as I can see, the probable events are:

1937
I Crystal Palace Cup
I Imperial Trophy - ?? Oct
I London GP - 17 Jul
1938
II Coronation Trophy
II Crystal Palace Cup
II Imperial Trophy - ?? Oct
II London GP - 26 Jun
I Sydenham Trophy
1939
III Crystal Palace Cup
III Imperial Trophy - 26 Aug
II Sydenham Trophy

Can anyone fill in the missing dates?

1937
Apr 24 Coronation Trophy
Jul 17 London Grand Prix
Aug 14 Grand Composite meeting
Oct 9 Imperial Trophy
1938
Apr 2 Coronation Trophy
May 21 Grand Composite meeting
Jun 26 London Grand Prix
Aug 14 Crystal Palace Cup
Oct 8 Imperial Trophy
1939
Apr 15 Stanley Cup Frazer Nash BMW & Vintage CC
May 20 Sydenham Trophy
Jul 1 Crystal Palace Cup
Aug 26 Imperial Trophy

from 'Racing at Crystal Palace'by Philip Parfitt

[Vitesse]

Thanks Rob! Very useful.

I assume the Parfitt book doesn't include full results? I have 1-2-3 for the ones I posted (King-Farlow), but a full list of runners and riders is what I really need.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Vitesse
Thanks Rob! Very useful.

I assume the Parfitt book doesn't include full results? I have 1-2-3 for the ones I posted (King-Farlow), but a full list of runners and riders is what I really need.

Sorry,no just the winners of main events,no mention of handicaps.
Incidently,I just checked the Sheldon black book and the only Crystal Palace race included is 1937 Coronation Trophy-full entry list for that one if that is any use.This would seem to indicate that the other headliners were not to Voiturette rules but maybe Formula Libre?

[Vitesse]

Yes, the 1937 Coronation is in because it was scratch race - Sheldon doesn't include any handicaps, which can be frustrating, especially in 1938-9. For example the 1938 Cork GP was run to the GP Formula limits (3.0sc/4.5us), but it was a handicap, so it's not in Sheldon - unlike the Voiturette race at the same meeting, which was a scratch event. There are also a few scratch Formule Libre races in 1938-39 which he ignores because they admitted non-Formula cars (even if none actually raced!).

What I'm hoping is that these were "class handicaps" where all drivers in each class received the same allowance, rather than the normal Brooklands practice where handicaps were applied to individual drivers. There were a number of these races at Donington (1935-39 Empire Trophy and 1934-38 Nuffield Trophy) and just two at Brooklands (1934 Empire Trophy and 1938 BRDC Road Race). In almost all these, there was a significant Voiturette presence, sometimes with foreign visitors. Overall handicap results were issued, together with class results.

[ss_collins]

There are two projects on Crystal palace ongoing - one will be a cheapie book (updating the parfitt one ie 1899 - 2001) out in March the other is a complete results archive by RAP.

[Eric Falce]

I did quite a few races at the Palace,it did have an atmosphere all of its own and was great fun to drive on. I think it was in 64 that they held the tourist trouphy or something(have lost my records), Stewart drove an XK120,Coombes Lightweight E and something else I cant remember,won all three races,I finished third in the GT race behind Stewart and I think Roger Mac,(a long way)could not beleive it when they closed the circuit,did do the Sevenoaks and District sprint in 2000 though driving a Pontiac,still had the same proper race circuit atmosphere that is missing from all the other circuits,great loss to us all.
Maybe if enough noise is made it could return,maybe!
Eric Falce

[ss_collins]

you still got any pics?

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Vitesse
Yes, the 1937 Coronation is in because it was scratch race - Sheldon doesn't include any handicaps, which can be frustrating, especially in 1938-9. For example the 1938 Cork GP was run to the GP Formula limits (3.0sc/4.5us), but it was a handicap, so it's not in Sheldon - unlike the Voiturette race at the same meeting, which was a scratch event. There are also a few scratch Formule Libre races in 1938-39 which he ignores because they admitted non-Formula cars (even if none actually raced!).

What I'm hoping is that these were "class handicaps" where all drivers in each class received the same allowance, rather than the normal Brooklands practice where handicaps were applied to individual drivers. There were a number of these races at Donington (1935-39 Empire Trophy and 1934-38 Nuffield Trophy) and just two at Brooklands (1934 Empire Trophy and 1938 BRDC Road Race). In almost all these, there was a significant Voiturette presence, sometimes with foreign visitors. Overall handicap results were issued, together with class results.

I had forgotten the Monkhouse/King-Farlow book which must have been on my shelf for 40 years now.He states that all of the CP main events(Bar the Coronation Trophy)were libre handicaps,including the 'London GP'Strangely Parfitts book does not mention this;
Report of 1st London GP;"Raymond Mays took the flag in the first heat,leading home Connell,Maclure,and Aitken.Bira won heat 2,in the process setting a new lap record at 56.47mph.Dodson (ERA) was second from Parnell (MG)and Hanson (Maserati).Bira underlined his skill by gong on to win the final completing the 15laps in 33m 3.7sec and finishing just over a minute ahead of Ian Connell (ERA)with Percy Maclure's Riley third and Parnell's MG fourth.Dobson took the lead at one stage but crashed out of contention after a rare mistake"

[Rob29]

Aplogies to Mr.Parfitt;a few paragraphs further on we have a report of the 1st Imperial Trophy-certainly a historic event in that it was the first motor race televised in the world.
"The race was to follow the now established Crystal Palace pattern of two heats and a final and the cars were divided into three handicap classes,with the Austins,MGs,MG-Riley and May's ERA in class A and classB consisting of the rest of the entry except for Hyde's Maserati which was on scratch.Class A received a 50-second start,Class B 10 seconds"

[Vitesse]

So Mays must have had an 1100cc engine in his ERA ... must have reckoned he could hold the bigger boys off with a 2-3 seconds a lap advantage on such a tight circuit: he was no fool, that Raymond!

If that's the established pattern of Palace handicaps, then I'm interested, since that's a class handicap!

[RAP]

Vitesse, I can confirm that all the pre war Crystal Palace races were run on a class handicap basis except for the inaugral meeting 24 April 37 that was a scratch race and the Stanley Trophy meeting that was a series of club races on individual handicaps.

As you say, the label "Handicap race" has resulted in these being much neglected events when in reality they were concurrent scratch races with the overall result set by the handicap.

RAP

[Vitesse]

Thanks. I've been digging a bit further and have come up with quite a bit more - Chula's books are particularly useful in this regard. Once I've got all my sources sorted perhaps we can compare notes?

[ss_collins]

Heres something to add to your collections - due out in March next year, it covers all the bits prfitts book missed out - whilst nowhere near as comprehensive has lots of bits that have either been forgotten or not documented properly elsewhere.

[Andrew Kitson]

Wow! Yes will definitely get that one Sam.

[Gnomex]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Wow! Yes will definitely get that one Sam.

Yes indeed. Do you have any details yet - price? publisher? release date?

[ss_collins]

Veloce publishing, £9.99, March 05.

To whet you appetites let me draw you attention to the pic on the bottom right of the cover...

[Anuauto]

and the bottom left of the cover and your earlier post, that already answered 2 of the 3 questions...?

[ss_collins]

play nice KL -

[Kvadrat]

Originally Posted by Rob29

1938
Jun 26 London Grand Prix
Aug 14 Crystal Palace Cup

June 26 and August 14 were Sundays. Are these dates correct?

June 28 is given for London Grand Prix at The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing site (http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm).

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by Kvadrat

June 26 and August 14 were Sundays. Are these dates correct?

June 28 is given for London Grand Prix at The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing site (http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/gp382.htm).

Looks like errors in Parfitts book.In other places in same book it is June 25 & Aug 13.Roll on Sams new book!

[RAP]

Correct dates are 25th June 1938 and 13th August 1938.
RAP

[Kvadrat]

Does someone have these races' reports and statistics?

[ss_collins]

RAP is the man on dates - speaking of which - RAP when I get the proofs through of the chapters would you mind checking the dates for me just to add an extra check!

[RAP]

Originally Posted by Kvadrat

Does someone have these races' reports and statistics?

London GP
1. B Bira ERA 36.00.1"
2. A Dobson ERA
3. A Cuddon-Fletcher MG K3
4. G Abecassis Alta
5. H Stuart Wilton MG K3
6. N Wilson ERA 1100

Crystal Palace Cup
1. G Abecassis Alta 33'15.2"
2. T Rolt ERA
3. J Wakefield ERA
4. A Dobson ERA
5. J H T Smith MG K3
6. A Cuddon-Fletcher MG K3

Sam, happy to check your proofs. Just so others are aware, I am compiling in conjunction with the Formula 1 Register a detailed record of all races at Crystal Palace which will, where possible, contain full results etc and will hopefully see the light of day later this year and complement Sam's book.

[Kvadrat]

Thank you!

Is Formula 1 Register Qiuntin Claud's Formula 1 Homepage of GP results & History?

[RAP]

Originally Posted by Kvadrat

Thank you!

Is Formula 1 Register Qiuntin Claud's Formula 1 Homepage of GP results & History?

Formula 1 Register is Paul Sheldon/Duncan Rabagliati who have published the "Record of Grand Prix and Voituerette Racing" series of books, usually known as the "black books" . Also Fact Books on F3, F Junior, Tasman, F5000 and on Goodwood. It seems to me that a very high proportion of the history internet sites basically copy data from these books. They publish as St Leonards Press.

[ss_collins]

With the Parfitt book, mine and RAP's project crystal Palace should be one of the best documented circuits going. I should point out that my book is not an alternative to Parfitts, but covers the bits he missed. If you want the full crystal palace story you really should get both... as mine is more concerned with the birth, life, death rebirth, etc.. of the track that has made more comebacks than Nigel Mansell.

There are some great unpublished and never before seen pictures of crystal palaces first three seasons.

The book is due to hit the shelves in March - I think you can pre order on Veloce publishing or amazon - the latter is usually cheaper

[RAP]

By the way, Formula 1 Register's web site is
www.formulaoneregister.com
RAP

[ss_collins]

The new Crystal Palace book is finally about to hit the shelves.. have a pre prod copy.

[Neptune]

Will it be available through Classic Motorbooks in the US? I had to get the Parfit book in the UK.

I have an affection toward the Palace, since I own the last of Keith Halls 3 Lotus Elevens. He did really well there in the earlier two in '56 and '57, but after a great start to the '58 season w/ 4DTN, he crashed, I believe going up ramp bend in practice, May '58, and never raced there again.

I had to make a pilgrimage there in May 1993, a cold and blustery day and had a hard time making out where things had been. I bought the Parfit book a week later, but now I must return to walk the course.

Roger

[ss_collins]

Hello all - the book is out! got a good review in classic and sportcar this month, roger - check the new book out to get you mind straight on the venue - it displells a few common held misconceptions - including pictures of racing and motorsport at Crystal Palace when Victoria was queen of england...