Classic Cars

[John Turner]

How do you define what is almost an intangible personal perception? As the description of this new forum says, no one definition of a Classic Car would satisfy everybody. So to start this off, what attributes and qualities do you think identifies a classic car; is it build quality, appearance, performance, character, exclusivity, or original purchase price? Maybe it is a combination of some or all of those. Does age make a car that was fairly ordinary when new become a classic. What do you think makes a Classic Car?

[garcon]

Not being much of a traditionalist or an afficionado, I'd say it's very subjective.

Go to any "Classic Car Show" and the impression you'll gain is that a classic car is anything that still looks pristine 25 years after it rolled out of the factory.

To me, it has to have achieved something. Beautiful lines, revolutionary design, motorsport success could all be a factor.

Beyond that, I really couldn't give you a formula. But if you fired a list of car makes and models at me I'd be able to fire back a thoroughly subjective "Yes" or "No" just as quickly!

[johnh875]

Given the term "Classic" is used as a period descriptor like Vintage, the 25 year thing is probably about as close to a definition as you will get. A 1925 Allegro-equivalent is just as much of a vintage car as a Bentley. That someone likes Allegros may seem a poor choice but is still a valid one. The term classic when applied to cars that have achieved something as you say is a different use of the word in my opinion.

Mind you at the moment it is getting to a tricky point with the 25 year thing, ~1980 metal bumpers began to disappear so that will be a bit of a test as to what people accept as a classic. I know in the States different states have capped their classic car provisions at 1980-81, others did too but have changed back.

[John Turner]

Very good points, John. I had suggested the term 'Classic and Collectable Cars' with a cut off date but withdrew that suggestion when it was pointed out that practically every car now which is regarded as collectable features in the various Classic Car mags anyway, whether or not they have the qualities that you and Garc outline above. It is also why, in the description of this new forum, we have left it open to posters to start threads on what they consider 'Classic'.

[John Turner]

I've completed my first trawl of the Road Car Forum to move appropriate archived threads here. Here is an interesting (but brief) thread on the subject:-

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8231

For those who wish to see the old threads moved here, just go to the 'Display Options' box, at the bottom of the page, select 'Beginning' in the 'from the' box and then hit the 'Show threads' box.

[redshoes]

Have to agree with John's original comments. I don't think you'd every get a definite dictionary definition of what makes a 'classic car'. It's like trying to definite why something is 'cool' or 'stylish', although of course you don't need to be either to qualify as a classic. In some respects if you need to define what makes a classic then you don't truly understand. For any test you care to apply I could easily find something proves to be an exception.

I don't buy the age rule, 25 years or otherwise. Take 2 Minis, one a 1980 model the other a 1985. Aside from a few minor trim differences they are essentially identical. Does that mean one is a classic and the other isn't? I can think of a number of 25+ year old cars which I would never consider a classic and equally any number of more modern examples which I would.

Build Quality?
Trabant anyone? Or any early Lotus, or almost anything produced by BL for that matter.

Exclusivity?
There's been more VW Beetles made than almost any other car yet few would dispute it's classic status.

Purchase Price?
Fiat 500 was as cheap as chips but still as much a classic as a Jaguar E-type.

Motorsport success?
The Morris Minor is better known for district nurses than rally drivers and has almost no motorsport credentials.

My parents have a mid 80's Pug 205, low mileage, fairly good condition, been in the family since new, and even a rare 'Look' model but I wouldn't consider it a classic. A similar condition GTi model on the other hand would be a different story altogether. But that doesn't necessarily mean that spec or badging is important. An RS2000 Escort is far more desirable than it's '1100 Popular' counterpart yet I would still consider the poverty-spec model to be a classic.

Even condition is not a factor. Forget the sanitised indoor show with it's club stands and concours condition displays and go to a typical outdoor show, the sort where real people drive in with real cars. Most will be anything other than 'factor fresh'.

As if to disprove my own argument maybe the best definition of what makes a classic car is one which is loved or appreciated for what it is or what it represents rather simply as a mode of transport.

[GEOFF THOMAS]

What is a Classic Car? It’s a bit subjective really …

In 1969, on a Wednesday evening, I was sitting with a pal over Dinner and a bottle of White Burgundy. “It’s the French Grand Prix this week-end” he said. I said “O.K., let’s go”.

The next evening, Thursday, we caught the night ferry from Portsmouth. We arrived at Rheims at 09.30. “Let’s go further South” he said. I said "O.K."

We drove on: we stopped for lunch and an odd glass or two. We arrived at The Hotel du Cap, Antibes, just as the sun was going down. What a drive. What a car. What a trip. What an experience. I will never forget that drive.

We were in a Ferrari GTB 275 Long – Nose.

Now THAT was a classic car!

Geoff.

[John Turner]

True Geoff, a classic and beautiful with it. No. plate should be on a Triumph, though!

[Peter Mallett]

Yep I've always liked Enzo's take on the Marcos.

Quite rightly you can't really define a classic car. But in my case I have an MGB of 1965 vintage and a Mondeo of 1998 vintage plus the obligatory off roader Jeep Cherokee 60th Anniversary model (which is a classic in its own right).

So why would any of them be considered a classic?

The MG is easy. A marque which at that time had continuous history goiong back over 40 years. Parts bin it may have been but 500000 examples later it had a following. The design was advanced for a sportscar (ok use the term loosely) but it still has charm. I've recently installed a fast road engine and it is certainl a more interesting car to drive.

Then the Mondeo. This is the 2.0 Si version with sports supension, c/r gearbox and uprated brakes. The handling is better than any car of its era that I tried including Cavaliers and Vectras. So I'd call it a classic for that reason and because it broke the mould for mass produced vehicles at that time.

The Jeep? Its the end of the "box" shaped version. No more to be said, the character has gone now. And they don't make that straight 6 four litre engine anymore. That has serious grunt.

So three cars that in some way would qualify as classic to me.

(I've left the racing car out of this).

[GEOFF THOMAS]

Originally Posted by John Turner

True Geoff, a classic and beautiful with it. No. plate should be on a Triumph, though!

In 1970, I sold my car with the number on it. I was under the impression (!) that it would be transfered back to me.

The chap who bought the car was on the TV yesterday - Alex Henshaw - in another classic machine - the Spitfire .....

Geoff.

[Steve Wilkinson]

classic noun a great work of art; something typical and influential of its kind; adj excellent; standard, typical of its kind: a classic example ; simple and elegant in style.

So I doubt that an Austin Allegro would count however a Ferrari 250 GT SWB would be a dead cert!

[GEOFF THOMAS]

I am much disappointed that there have been no recent posts about "Classics".

I am a "sixties" man myself, and have had the pleasure of many great experiences.

Maybe this illustration of one of my favourite models may provoke a response.

Geoff.

[Peter Mallett]

Steve put the brakes on.

Ursula was pretty stunning but as we know her looks have sadly faded whilst looks in a classic are definitely not everything. Otherwise how would the Morris 1000 qualify?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

classic adj excellent; standard, typical of its kind: a classic example ; simple and elegant in style.

So I doubt that an Austin Allegro would count however a Ferrari 250 GT SWB would be a dead cert!

Based on that definition the Allegro would qualify as a classic example of the output of the 70's British motor industry.

[GEOFF THOMAS]

Here's a picture taken at the launch of the new XK 120 alongside what was then, a not very old Frazer-Nash.

Geoff.