Brabham BT23 - 10-Tenths Motorsport Forum

Bryan Miller · 24 Jan 2004, 08:18

I have been to Goulburn , and returned with another Brabham.F2-8-65 , BT23B-1 according to David McKinney.Strange numbers on LHS. rear of frame.

David Irwin · 24 Jan 2004, 14:39

To my knowledge BT23 were not built by Arch Motors, they were built by Racing Fabrications, thus the stamped number in the frame begins with 'RF'.

allenbrown · 14 Feb 2004, 13:10

Is this the right place to ask about BT23C-11? Steve Mills has been in touch with me asking what became of her. He was with Cullen when the car was doing F2 events in 1970. For some reason, he can still rememebr the chassis number.

Anyone know?

Allen

David McKinney · 14 Feb 2004, 14:18

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea

Chris Townsend · 17 Feb 2004, 10:18

In January 1982 Autosport we have for sale by Northdown Racing of Ripley, Surrey, BT23C-2 [the ex Gethin/Don Godden car last seen for sale by Low Cost Racing in A/S in March 1973, and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

Andrew Fellowes · 18 Feb 2004, 01:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
and BT23-1, last seen being raced in Ireland by Maurice Stirling in 1973.

Chris

I bought BT23-1 from Jon Bradburn in late 84. He drove it a couple of times in HSCC events painted white, a colour he liked. Bradburn & Wedge were on the brink of collapse thanks to a massive loan from the bank to expand their business. -a time when the banks were throwing the stuff around. I see he has quite a few cars for sale these days!

Chris Townsend · 26 Apr 2004, 09:35

Looking forward to the BT23s. I know that 23-8 [built with an Alfa engine for Galli] was still extant in Italy a year or two back.

Chris

Andrew Fellowes · 11 May 2004, 21:26

OK, so who is going to start the BT23's? I know zilch apart from owning BT23-1 in 1985, ex Sir Jack, Tommy Reid and still in the UK, -?

Chris Townsend · 12 May 2004, 11:14

ok Andrew, Bryan et al, shoot holes, add things to this!

BT23

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham. Sold to Tommy Reid and retained to 1970. Then Walter Kinnear. To Nelson Todd 1971. Maurice Stirling 1973.

2: Works car 1967 for Hulme and Gardner.1969 Picchio Rosso for Enzo Corti. 1970 Vittorio Brambilla

3: Works car 1967 for Gardner. 1968: Xavier Perrot. Destroyed in accident at Nurburgring? !969 by Perrot

4: Winkelmann 1967 for Rees. 1968 Walter Habbeger. 1969 Bruno Frey [this number sometimes ascribed to Corti's car which was given the wrong plate at a rebuild]

5: Winkelmann 1967 for Rindt and van Lennep. Taken by Hulme to 1968 Tasman and written off.

6: Witley Racing Syndicate 1967 for Robin Widdows. this car or chassis 9 to Canada 1968 for Dave Webster.

7: Mitter, 1967. to Norbert Linderman 1968, then Helmut Gall 1970, destroyed in accident

8: Nanni Galli 1967 with Alfa engine. 1968 Giorgio Pianta. 1969: Etienne Vigoureux as F3 car.

9: David Bridges for Brian Redman. This car or 6 to Canada in 1968.

23C

1: Works car 1967 for Brabham/Gardner. 1968: Frank Williams for Piko Troberg/Harry Stiller [as F3]/Piers Courage/Laurence Brownlie. 1969: Williams - Graham McRae/Alistair Walker. 1970: Walter Kinnear [described as ex Courage/Walker]

2: Lythgoe: Gethin 1968. 1969 Whitmore for Don Godden. For sale by Low Cost Racing 1.3.73.

3 Not known

4: Chris Lambert. ?Destroyed in Lambert's accident at Zandvoort 68

5: Winkelmann 1968 for Rindt. 1969: Ec. Ecosse: Graham Birrell
1973: Joe Applegarth

6: Max Moseley 1968. 1969: Peter Parnell [ZA]; 1970: Arnold Charlton

7: Williams 1968 for Courage. 1969: Roly Levis

8: 1968: Kurt Ahrens. 1969-70 Bernd Terbeck. 1977. Bill Morris

9: 1968: Church Farm Racing for Bell, 1968-9 Laurence Brownlie

10: 1968: Malcolm Payne. 1969 Garth McGilliwie [ZA] 1970 Tony Dean
1971: Rod Pickering. 1972: Bob Howlings. 1973: Bob Snelson

11: Winkelmann 1968 for Rees and Mitter. 1969: Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy's bike crash. Kept by Cullen until end 71

12: Williams 1968 for Manfredini. 1969: Williams for Guthrie then sold to Bob Gerard for Widdows/Hart. 1970: Gerry Tyzack. 1971: Maybe Robin Darlington

13 Not built

14: Williams for Carlos Piaretti in Temporada

15: Eduardo Copello in Temporada

16: Williams for Juan Manuel Bordeu in Temporada. 1969: Williams for Courage and Ickx, then sold to Alistair Walker. 1970: Walker then sold to Gagliardi. 1971: Perhaps the Marcello Gallo BT23C running as F3 in 1971

17: Jorge Cuperio in Temporada. 1969: Perrot replacing w/o 23. 1970 Baron Robertson and 1971 then Kelvin Cameron . Have my doubts about the NZ thing

Chris

allenbrown · 12 May 2004, 12:08

I think the Baron Roberston/Kelvin Cameron BT23C was misread. Pretty sure it was BT23C/7, not 17.

Allen

David McKinney · 12 May 2004, 13:32

I'll go through this when I get home
In the meantime:
Baron Robertson's first BT23C was #7, ex-Levis. This was badly damaged and Robertson imported a replacement car, which had a plate identifying it as #17 (though whether it was the ex-Cupeiro 17 I wouldn't like to say....) This was the car which passed on to Kelvin Cameron etc
The original car (7) was meanwhile straightened out by Robertson's mechanic, Phil Harris, and adapted for FF1600.
Both cars raced in NZ at the same time
I think this is the same Phil Harris who still races Brabhams in North American historics (or did a few years ago)

David McKinney · 12 May 2004, 19:19

BT23
•Hulme, as you say, started the Tasman series with #5, which was written off at Pukekohe. His replacement car was No.4, and was described at the time as his 1967 works mount, which had been sold to an unnamed American (though listed by F1R and you as #2). The question is, did Scuderia Picchio-Rossi get the ex-Tasman car for Corti, or was the #2 they got (and called 4) another car?
The unnamed American got a car (number unknown) which had been shipped to Mike Champion in Australia
•I have the Mitter/Werner Lindermann etc car as 9 (though F1R says 7). I don’t have anyone for 7, but nor do I have a number for the Bridges/Redman car)

BT23C
•I have Howlings racing #1 in 1970. I wonder if the Kinnear reference (by others as well as you) is to BT23-1, not BT23C-1?
•I have #4 with Corti in 1969 (a possible confusion with BT23/4 - or BT23/2!)
•I have the South African cars the other way around (6 with McGillwie 1969, then Arnold Charlton, and 10 with Parnell then returning to the UK)
•7 came back to the UK in the late 1980s. The NZ 17 (whatever it really was) was destroyed by fire about 1978
•Brownlie certainly never had BT23C/9 (except perhaps on paper)
•I have Tyack using #12 in hillclimbs in 1971 as well as 1970

Bryan Miller · 13 May 2004, 00:04

I will have to have a few goes at this.

BT23's 1st.

BT23-1 , M.R.D. RF5 , FVA 7021, Jack Brabham 1967.
1968 , Irish Racing Cars , Tommy Reid with a Ford Twin -cam.
1969, as above Tommy Reid.
1970, as above , but now with FVA.

BT23-2,RF6, FVA 7012, M.R.D. Hulme , then apparently to Walter Habegger , but then borrowed/rented back by Hulme to finish the Tasman with after his big accident in BT23-5 in early 1968, thence back to Europe to Scuderia Piicchio Rosso [ Enzo Corti ] carries chassis number 23-4 scratched on chassis .
1969 Enzo Corti .
1970 Vittorio Brambilla.

BT23-3, M.R.D. RF8 FVA 7003 , Gardner 1967.
1968 , Xavier Perrot.
1969, Perrot written off in non F2 race.

BT23-4, Winkleman/Rees FVA 7008 .
1968 Walter Habegger Racing.
1969, Bruno Frey.

BT23-5, Winkleman / Rindt, 1967
1968 , Hulme in Tasman untill serious accident, then rented / borrowed BT23-2,
Damaged BT23-5 sold to Feo Stanton in N.Z. and sent to Bob Brittan / Rennmax in Australia for rebuild, typically Bob made a jig [ subsequently used for Mildren / Rennmax BN3 / etc. cars and sent a new car known as the Rorstan Porsche bach to N.Z. containing all the usable BT23-5 bits , this car used by Brian Fallon until his Fatal accident .
Meanwhile back in OZ , Bob Rebuilt the original frame as a project for Warren Leach as a Formula Ford , using Rennmax uprights etc, the car was repossed by Bob Brittan for , I believe non payment , and the car then sold to Graham Hepburn of Talbingo N.S.W. it then ended up with Denis Lupton of Melbourne circa 1981.
Meanwhile back in N.Z. the Falloon car with its apparently rare 4 cam eng still remaining somehow found its way to Melbourne Porsche Distributor Alan Hamilton who had acquired the car for the eng.and gearbox for a restoration .
The remains , i.e. rolling chassis then went to Les Sargent , then to Denis Lupton , who now had both collections of bits , a chinese deal evolved [ these dealings famous in OZ ] and George Goodare of Sydney swapped a BT15 to Lupton for the collection of BT23-5 in December 1983, where upon a major rebuild commenced and the car is still in the hands of George Goodare, after having compainged the car for many years complete with correct FVA / FT200 etc, and having recast new uprights etc. The car has not been used for some time now.

BT23-6 , Robbin Widdows .1967 , end 67 sold to Mitsubishi Motors .
I see a car advising this chassis number for sale in the U.S.A now.

Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 13 May 2004, 01:45

Part 2 .

Further to above on BT23-6 FVA 7027.
Prob. purchased by Mitsubishi , to produce the Colt F2 cars and eng. for S.E.Asia .

BT23-7, 1967 Gerhard Mitter , with a note carrying Chassis plate BT23-9.
1968 Werner Linderman.
1969, Linderman / Montan Racing.
1970, Montan Racing, Helmut Galli.

BT23-8, Nanni Galli , Alfa Romeo .
1968, Giorgio Pianta , F2 4 Valve t/c GTA eng.
end of 1968 to Albert Poon at Macao.

BT23-9, David Bridges [ Brian Redman ] Frank Williams as F3 [ Harry Stiller ] carrying ch.pl. BT23-8.
By 1969 Etienne Vigoreux as an F3.

BT23C-1,

M.R.D. Brabham/ Gardner, 1967 August.
1968 March Frank Williams Racing ,Troberg/Courage/Brownlie/McRae.
1969, Paul Watson Racing , McRae.
Advertised by Bob Howlings Motor Sport May 1970 / p.516.
Sold to Rodney Seow , Singapore, 850.00 U.K. pounds less eng. and gearbox.
Sold to Mike Truter , Singapore 1980.
Sold To Brian Wilson Australia , Jan 1983.

This car and BT23-5 both rebuilt by George Goodare in Sydney.

Brian Wilson retains car to this day , and uses it all the time in historic, and despite having BT5 SC-2-63 and BT24-1 , this car is his favourite.

So that looks like BT23C-1 was a mistake for Walter Kinnear , and was his usual BT23-1.

More later. Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 13 May 2004, 02:59

The memory chip just spluttered into life, and remembered that initially the Rorstan Porsche was Climax 2.5 / 2.7 FPF powered, prior to the Porsche instalation.
fiss-whir- splutter-=*^%$_+__---