Brabham BT23 - Page 4

allenbrown · 13 Apr 2006, 08:02 (Ref:1580129)

This is the best I can do on first appearance dates:

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Ted and I thought we'd sorted out the BT23Bs 20 years ago but maybe we hadn't. I've just gone back to my early-1980s card index and assembled this:

Brabham BT23B/1

Mike Hawley; completed June 1967 (See Autosport 16 Jun 1967 p973). Bought by Bob Rose (AS 19 Jul 1968 p37). Then the Mickels (AS 4 Apr 1969 p37). Advertised AS 22 Oct 1970 p59 and that's all I have.

Brabham BT23B/3

Built Sept 1967 "believed last one of the specially built Tasman F1 machines. 2 short successful races only" - George Pitt AS 8 Dec 1967 p1011. The races would be the Gold Cup and an Oulton libre (AS 6 Oct 1967 p587). Then Racing Preparations for Tony Lanfranchi RoC 1968. Later JD Lewis in ex-RP BT23B AS 13 Sep 1968 p5. Then Jack Smith for Roy Pike (AS 8 Aug 1969, 29 Aug 1969 - one of which mentions it's ex-Pitt, ex-RP). Then Autosport review of club racing (12 Feb 1970 p23) says Smith sold his BT23B to his homeland for the Canadian GP. Raced by Cordts from time-to-time in Canadian FA? That's all I have on this one.

My notes don't say why I'm so sure about the chassis numbers, but it does leave the Vögele car as BT23B/2.

Allen

Ted Walker · 13 Apr 2006, 08:11 (Ref:1580136)

Allen THE VOGELE IS 23B-2.I know where chassis 1 is as well.Its just 3 thats missing.We seem to be going over the same ground !!!!!!!!!!

allenbrown · 13 Apr 2006, 08:52 (Ref:1580171)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

We seem to be going over the same ground !!!!!!!!!!

I know we are Ted. 20-year-old ground for you and me. But I think it's important that we demonstrate to the others why we believe something to be true instead of expecting them to just take our word for it. Any of us need to be able to ask "why do you believe that" and make us go back to our sources and check. David was good enough to do that on F2-8-65 and I have no doubt that you and I will take (have taken) our turn at saying "oops".

The BT23Bs might be a sufficiently separate subject to be worth splitting out into their own thread.

Allen

Alan Brown · 13 Apr 2006, 10:28 (Ref:1580260)

It is intriguing to see in the last issue of Classic & Sports Car [April 2006] two separate adverts by Automobiles Historiques Ltd on pages 83 and 100. The adverts refer to a 1967 BT23B chassis number 2 of 3 cars produced, and to a 1964 BT11A IC-1-64 ex Charles Vogele

Bryan Miller · 13 Apr 2006, 23:12 (Ref:1580868)

Alan,
Thank you for listing the 2 cars ex Vogele , this is the reason I asked re Vogele having a BT11A as well , as I have always had IC-1-64 down against him , and became confused when I referred to'' old racing cars '', and presumed I had made an incorrect note many years ago.
Allen , is there a story here re your listing on your site ?
Bryan.

Ted Walker · 14 Apr 2006, 07:58 (Ref:1581021)

Both the Vogele cars in the Flavien Marcais advert he is selling on behalf of their owner.The Vogele BT4 is also for sale by a different UK owner. Good chance to corner the market !!!!!!!

Chris Townsend · 14 Apr 2006, 09:51 (Ref:1581098)

BT23F

One built for FB. 1968-69 Bill Gubelmann; 1970-71: Al Justason. 1971-72 possibly the car of Michael Houselander [CAN FB] which is described as a BT23C [and if it is then we are in trouble!]

A couple of BT23 conundrums in North America
Ted Thomas appears April 1970 at Virginia International Raceway with a BT23. I've always presumed this to be the ex Webster car but maybe there are other options as it's a long way from RIR to VIR?

Dave Webster first shows up Riverside Nov 68 with a BT23.

allenbrown · 15 Apr 2006, 16:52 (Ref:1582921)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Alan,
Thank you for listing the 2 cars ex Vogele , this is the reason I asked re Vogele having a BT11A as well , as I have always had IC-1-64 down against him , and became confused when I referred to'' old racing cars '', and presumed I had made an incorrect note many years ago.
Allen , is there a story here re your listing on your site ?
Bryan.

Bryan

A story re my listing? I'm not with you. IC-1-64 is definitely the Vögele car, built late May 1964 so a good four months before the other BT11As. Confusingly the Mildren/Gardner BT11A also wore a plate saying IC-1-64 although it appears in MRD records as IC-3-64.

It's interesting to re-read my notes on the BT11As; my sources include Denis Lupton (Jan 1983), Duncan Rabagliati (April 1983), John Blanden (Dec 1984), Ted Walker (June 1987), George Thornton (Sep 1991), David McKinney (March 1994) and Bryan Miller (Oct 1994). It's a small world, isn't it? Pity John and George can't join us now.

Allen

Ted Walker · 16 Apr 2006, 08:27 (Ref:1583373)

I agree Allen IC-3-64 Mildren.

Andrew Fellowes · 20 Apr 2006, 00:41 (Ref:1589251)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

F2-8-65 appears to have been returned to the works and altered at the works to accept Climax 2.5 FPF and HD5 Hewland in the style of the BT23 series cars with limitations , etc...

Autosport reports than Frank Gardner did the work at Alan Mann's workshop.

(thanks for this to D.L.)

Andrew Fellowes · 25 Apr 2006, 01:00 (Ref:1594242)

3rd Place in the 1969 Italian F3 Championship

Claudio Francisci, Brabham-Novamotor BT23, de Sanctis-Novamotor (Gerald Swan, F3 History)

BT23-8?

Andrew Fellowes · 25 Apr 2006, 21:49 (Ref:1594955)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

BT23C-12
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard, Traco Chev, DG300?)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

Revision.
1968 Frank Williams for Manfredini
1969 Frank Williams for Guthrie
1969? Bob Gerard for Widdows & Hart
1970-1 Gerry Tyzack
1971 maybe Robin Darlington? –C.T.
(1971 A/S Nov.11th p.46 BT23C for sale ex Gerard less engine & gearbox and also Traco Chev, DG300)
1986 Adrian Thomas
1988-9 Kelvin Lambeth as per D.M
1990 Monte Shalett
1998 Mark Leonard/G.P. Motors, La Jolla, CA
Peter Bull

**John Turner** · 14 May 2006, 16:27 (Ref:1609653)

Bryan Miller has asked me to post this picture of Brian Wilson's BT23C-1 at Eastern Creek March 2006:-

allenbrown · 20 May 2006, 11:25 (Ref:1614793)

Returning to this business of Kinnear having two BT23s, the report for Kirkistown 29 May 1971 (AS 10 Jun 1971 p46) says Nelson Todd was "having his first twin cam single seater drive in what was originally Brabham BT23-1 but now rebuilt to 23C spec" while Kinnear was "in his usual BT23 TC".

If Todd's BT23-1 is ex-Kinnear, this at least proves Kinnear had a second BT23 or BT23C by 1971. I think the identity BT23C/1 is a red herring.

Allen

**John Turner** · 22 May 2006, 16:40 (Ref:1616421)

Thierry De Mortier's BT23-3 at Silverstone, 20 May 2006:-

allenbrown · 30 May 2006, 20:28 (Ref:1623273)

We have Chris Choat in a Brabham BT36 in 1974 but I've found him a year earlier in a Brabham BT23C which seems to have escaped our attention so far.

References are:

Silverstone libre 18 Mar 1973 (4th) - Autosport 22 Mar 1973 p17
Silverstone libre 1 Jul 1973 (5th) - Autosport 5 Jul 1973 p43

It was said to still have a FVA engine.

Any ideas? Anyone have Motoring News for those events to see if it adds a clue or two?

Allen

Andrew Fellowes · 30 May 2006, 21:32 (Ref:1623331)

If I discard the ‘cant be’ and ‘unlikely’ then I am left with the following;
BT23C-2, 8, 9, 12, 17 but that’s pure speculation on my part and not really a great help.

I have for 1973, #1 accounted for, #3 a mystery, #4 destroyed, #5 Joe Applegarth, #6 fled the country as did #7, #10 Bob Snelsdon, #11 McGarrity, #14 most like in S.America as is #15, #16 advertised for sale on the 15th March so I would be surprised if it was racing 3 days later.

allenbrown · 31 May 2006, 09:56 (Ref:1623656)

The first outing I have for Applegarth is 12 Aug (Croft) so we can't really exclude his car. However, I'd have to agree that it's somewhat unlikely Applegarth and Choat had the same car as Applegarth started out with a twin-cam in his.

So I'm not helping much either.

Alan Brown · 2 Jun 2006, 07:46 (Ref:1625177)

Afraid MN has no extra information in its reports of those two libre meetings at Silverstone.

IANHEB · 2 Jun 2006, 14:56 (Ref:1625516)

With regard to BT23C-6 (or possibly-10),Arnold Charlton recently confirmed that his car was sold back to the UK in late 1970 after the FVA engine had blown up after a recent re build and he lost patience with it.Sorry can't add any more than that.
Ian

allenbrown · 2 Jun 2006, 15:54 (Ref:1625539)

Did Arnold Charlton say whether he bought Parnell's car or McGillewie's car? I think that's the key to sorting out the two South African BT23Cs.

Allen

allenbrown · 6 Jun 2006, 21:00 (Ref:1628802)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

BT23C-11
1968 Winklemann for Rees & Mitter
1969 Bill Ivy, then to Brian Cullen after Ivy’s bike crash
1970 Brian Cullen (mechanic Steve Mills)
no more ‘till
1990 Mark Raymond or Rayment, UK
2004 for sale by Maverick Motorsport

Quote:

Originally Posted by David McKinney

Some observations:

BT23C-11
I have Harold and Gerry McGarrity in this in 1973

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Returning to this business of Kinnear having two BT23s, the report for Kirkistown 29 May 1971 (AS 10 Jun 1971 p46) says Nelson Todd was "having his first twin cam single seater drive in what was originally Brabham BT23-1 but now rebuilt to 23C spec" while Kinnear was "in his usual BT23 TC".

If Todd's BT23-1 is ex-Kinnear, this at least proves Kinnear had a second BT23 or BT23C by 1971. I think the identity BT23C/1 is a red herring.

Allen

While trying to find something else, I spotted an advert for the "Ex-Bill Ivy. Championship winner last year, Brabham BT23C 1600 cc Holbay Clubman" from Glemgormley, County, Antrim (AS 18 Sep 1975 p58).

Does anyone know who won the Irish Clubmans series in 1974? Alternatively, anyone know where the McGarritys lived? I know Harold McGarrity drove a Holbay 1600cc powered BT23C in 1973 but haven't covered Irish racing in 1974 as the main series moved to Atlantic and Chris will already be all over it.

I wonder if BT23C/11 was Kinnear's 1971/72 car and then moved to the McGarritys when Kinnear bought his Lotus 69.

Allen

275 GTB-4 · 8 Jun 2006, 10:27 (Ref:1629851)

QUOTE
and if you wish to see a rare appearance of Jack Brabham's 1967 2.5 litre V8 BT23A Tasman Series open wheeler, we will be running the car this weekend at OP also. You can see pics of the car at www.summit.net.au/~simmsy - not just demo laps, the car will be racing in Group O.
UNQUOTE

allenbrown · 10 Jul 2006, 12:25 (Ref:1652207)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes 11 Apr 2006

BT23C-2
1967 Frank Gardner?
1968 Frank Lythgoe, Peter Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
1973 A/S 1st March p. 56 for sale Low Cost Racing BT23C-2 ex Gethin
1974 A/S 28th Nov. p. 57 BT23C ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941

To which I can add that Ian Webb owned it in 1982 ("ex-Lythgoe/Gethin" - AS 26 Aug 1982 p28) and loaned it to Mike Hartley to use in the Gates-Varley Monoposto series.

Allen

Dave Darrow · 27 Jul 2006, 17:59 (Ref:1666070)

Hi: i found this thread surfing the net.
Yes i have the BT23F that was last owned raced by Al Justisson,
presently is is 60 to 70% restored.

Dave Darrow

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