Saloon car series - 10-Tenths Motorsport Forum

Denis Bassom · 4 Jun 2006, 13:55

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Is it rules consistency, performance equalisation measures (eg single tyre supplier, selected cars), restricted regulations, open regulations, class structure, circuits visited, atmosphere, entry costs, circuit time etc etc etc.

Al Weyman · 4 Jun 2006, 15:45

Some of it depends whether you have an existing car or not and how it fits in. If you are building from scratch you may look at it differently. Shame there is so much diversity across the board.

COLIN STUBBS · 4 Jun 2006, 17:06

difficult one denis and im sure i know where your coming from. having been in the classic saloon car club for many many years id say they originally had it right. good set of rules and regulations that are easy to police,cars not so highly modified as to beeing expensive/unreliable.use a control tyre.minimum weight limits.but they became too big and cliqey,bringing in rules to suit certain people,etc.make the cars fit in with other popular series[theres far to many different ones,all with their own regs].what you need is a good club to run it. its no good one man trying to do it all,race,etc and win..... a good club and commitee can thrash out the problems,sort out whats going on and look after the members. give the guys and girls that support it something back.hardly anyone knows how cheap it is to race modprods on toyo tyres.its a damn good series that you can run in and do other series without altering your car much. its a crying shame that its doomed due to small entries and lack of support.or were you coming from somewhere else??

Al Weyman · 4 Jun 2006, 20:45

It does'nt have to be doomed just be a little more flexable like the CTRCC has or SCCA in the US.

Now here is an example. As you may know I built my IROC race car to race in ModProds but unfortunately I discovered that it has some basic design faults as a road car and one of the worst problems is a long torque arm that bolts to the rear axle and at the other end to the tail housing of the gearbox. What is meant to happen is as you accelerate the axle twists and attempts to lift the car with the torque arm, it can't so it plants the tyres down and gets good traction. Great so far but for racing there are two problems. One once you put real power through it it tends to snap the gearbox case and two under braking it trys to lift the axles causing absolutely uncontrolable wheel hop that has to be experienced to be believed. Now I have fitted a special torque arm and cross member that completely solves the problem and is sancioned for use by SCCA in the US. If I entered my car in Mod Prods for this reason it would be illegal. When I was running the championship I tried to make exceptions for certian models and it was always chucked out.

Another example. John Warren a Ford dealer and good racer and car preparer wanted to enter a Scopio with the Cosworth V6 engine, only trouble is from the factory they only came with an auto trans unlike the standard 2.8 that came with a manual. All the guy wanted to do was run the manual box from the 2.8 and I was all for it but oh no it was thrown out, everyone getting up in arms, oh he might beat me, cant have that can we, and we lost yet another good competitor for the sake of a bit of flexibility.

If you do not have this flexablity then what happens? There are only certain models that are worth preparing and you get stick in a time warp, example SDI Rovers and Mk 1 Escorts. You must have sensible flexability and I would suggest you have a basic set of rules like you have in the ModProds but invite people to enter with declared mods that they would like to do then decide if you think they are OK or not but be fair and flexable.

R59 · 4 Jun 2006, 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

What is the most important thing for you in a saloon car series?

Is it rules consistency, performance equalisation measures (eg single tyre supplier, selected cars), restricted regulations, open regulations, class structure, circuits visited, atmosphere, entry costs, circuit time etc etc etc.

Open Saloons meetings seem to get full grids when the price is right.

Does that teach you anything?

216gti · 5 Jun 2006, 05:26

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and quite new to racing, as much as entry costs and good track time on a quality circuit are important, if the car doesn't fit, what's the point! It doesn't exactly seem to be a boom time for club racing at present and nobody needs the over zealously policed series out there policing themselves out of existance. MSV seemed to get it right at Brands, the LMA rounds that I did last year had full grids+reserves, also we couldn't get an entry for Coombe last week. I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere, a little flexibility can't hurt, can it?
Colin, do you run a 216 Gti? name rings a bell.
Cheers for now.....Chris

Al Weyman · 5 Jun 2006, 07:42

Yeah but do you really want to enter your little 216gti and end up being blown out of the water and probably lapped several times by someone like Rob when he gets his 1300kgs 740bhp Belmont Astra running right, I don't think so. Rules are neccessary to level the playing field or what is the point in turning out, these things put on by MSV etc are fun and good to have a go in and one of the main attraction of course is the price but if you enter two or three on the trot and start to realise you are only there to make up the numbers and give someone else overtaking practice I guarantee the novelty will soon wear very thin.

***Chris Y*** · 5 Jun 2006, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

Open Saloons meetings seem to get full grids when the price is right.

Does that teach you anything?

Those are obviously non-championship rounds though - it's a little different when you're competing for wins/points.

Al Weyman · 5 Jun 2006, 09:29

Exactly, they are a bit of budget fun.

216gti · 5 Jun 2006, 10:11

Point taken, but I have only raced in a sports and saloon championship and as such have had to get used to being lapped by 650bhp Stealth (900kgs), 350 bhp V6 Jade, Tiga, all manner of Radicals and by then the Super Tourers coming by seem quite tame by comparison, don't mean to be flippant but it doesn't make it a bad race as there are always 8 or 10 saloons at the back in our race although it does keep you on your toes approaching every apex because if there's not something quick there when you turn in you just know that one will be along in a second! I did try a couple of LMA rounds last year and did enjoy them though as you do not have to drive constantly in the mirrors, ok there are some ex Tourers at the front but at least they only lap you at a sensible rate.
My little 216gti does tend to make up the numbers as it's only little, but it could have comfortably qualified and finished top 8 or 10 out of 30+ in the MSV event at Brands and wouldn't have started last in the open Sports\ GT race and even better with somebody else in it!
All the same I do see your point and would love to race in a series with similar cars, it would be far more fun, any suggestions. I was thinking about the CTCRC but have just seen Colin Stubbs old post about the Rover perhaps not being suitable.
Many thanks for any advice ...Chris

jonners · 5 Jun 2006, 11:29

The Castle Combe saloon championship has restrictive regs regarding what you can race and arguments over the technical regs are quite common.

But the series is very popular and that must have something to do with the fact that the drivers don't have to travel all over the place to race.

Ok - some people want to race at all the circuits. Who wouldn't?? I would love to try every circuit I can but it's never going to happen.

Also, a careful look at the regs means that there's less scope for people to say "I've got a certain sort of car already why can't I race?"

It seems to me that this is where the problems start

stuart05 · 5 Jun 2006, 12:09

216gti - take a look at Classic Sports Car Club Tin Tops series. Very few regs, good diversity of cars to race against, big grids, lots of track time with the 40 minute races and a chance to share the car and split the costs.
The Track and Race Car series is an excellent series too, but if your car is more "standard" you might find Tin Tops a little more comfortable.

216gti · 5 Jun 2006, 12:20

Thanks for the replies, I'll look at both of those, the car is original Rover Cup spec. so I'm not sure where it would fit best. What are the entry costs for the 40 min. races with the Tin Tops, they sound good.
Cheers for now...Chris

Al Weyman · 5 Jun 2006, 12:34

Check out the new for 06 CTRCC Pre 93's as well as that is going down a storm, also the mOdprods if your car is more developed.

Personally it would bore me to tears racing at the one track week in week out. Variety is the spice of life and no more than in the race scene. This is why I have entered that two race Rockingham all comers for £150, don't know if it will happen yet as have not had any feedback but why not get your entry in for that 216gti as it sounds good value with two 20 minute races and all and I have never been to The Rock and doubt I will with the other championships I am running in so its a good opportuntity also on with a the Thunder Sunday so should be some good racing to watch as well.

stuart05 · 5 Jun 2006, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by 216gti

Thanks for the replies, I'll look at both of those, the car is original Rover Cup spec. so I'm not sure where it would fit best. What are the entry costs for the 40 min. races with the Tin Tops, they sound good.
Cheers for now...Chris

We raced at Donington last weekend for £275 which got us 30 mins practise and 40 mins racing. It's obviously a bit more cash to hand over than for a 15 - 20 minute race but with the option of a second driver, the value for money is very good. If the car is Rover Cup spec then you can run in the up to 1600cc class using list 1a or 1b tyres.