Saloon car series

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

In the ModProds the decision was taken to allow adustable rose jointed suspension. Now on the face of it that looks more expensive but if you stop and think about quite the opposite is true and why? Because what was happening (and by those that should no better) certain people were consealing rose joints in standard suspension components (much dearer than buying off the shelf monified TCA's)

While, on the face of it, this sounds reasonable, it can be a dangerous way to operate.

Why? Well, the problem is where do you stop? Someone is suspected of cheating with rose joints, so you allow rose joints. Next, someone is suspected of cheating with exhaust manifolds, so you allow them to be free. Pretty soon a vast swathe of the regs are 'free', and those on a budget struggle to keep up with whatever suspension part/engine mod is en vogue this week.

I guess what I'm saying is, If you're going to have tight regs, you need to enforce them tightly too.

[Matt Speakman]

Chris & Colin, I have just acquired my 2nd 216 Gti - raced one in Super Coupe for 2 years & loved it, sold it to A.Allitt (wales) & miss it dearly! Anyways, got another & will be racing it June 23/24/25 @ the 56th MGCC meet @ Silverstone in the 75km & 100km endurances. After this I'm not sure what to do with it, though one thing that cropped up was the Pre-93. Sir Nigel competes in his Rover Tomcat & it looks to be a good series. What I'm getting at is...would other 216 Gti owners consider the Pre-93? From the lap times I've seen Sir Nigel's Tomcat went round Brands Indy in a 57/58s - a time the 216 Gti is more than capable of...thus providing close racing. LMA is great - taken my Clio out a few times in it & had good battles with the Lancia of Nyssa7 & hung onto the back of Hammersleys Cleland Cavalier, however if 216 Gti owners were to commit to Pre-93 close competition would always be available...

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Matt Speakman

however if 216 Gti owners were to commit to Pre-93 close competition would always be available...

You would be most welcome Matt. I've had few calls from Tomcat owners,
(other than Sir? Nigel. Didn't know that we were entertaining royalty )
who are considering trying Pre-93.

[Alan Cherry]

On the face of it, the nearest thing to a fair budget series is the budget beemers - The racing looks close - is it as fair as it looks ? what are the entry fees like, and is it now a national series ?

[andypipe]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Because what was happening (and by those that should no better) certain people were consealing rose joints in standard suspension components (much dearer than buying off the shelf monified TCA's) but it did not stop there oh no. They had several made up of different lengths and used to go to the track with a crew and extensively test the best set up. Now you cannot tell me a bit of adjustability would have been far better and cheaper in the long run and also get rid of the cheats by making it not worth while.

Who was that then Al?

[Al Weyman]

You don't expect me to say on air Andy do you but it certainly was not you or the Essex contingency, at least not to my knowledge :-) Just lets say I see it and it was then it was decided to go the rose joint thing for better or worse. Incidently our rules as you recollect allowed lengthening of the TCA's so to try different length ones was not illegal but bloody time consuming!

[Liam22]

Agree with all that

There's no point regulating something that cannot be effectively policed or where the regulation is a false economy. Coilovers with off the shelf springs are a good example.

[Al Weyman]

Anyone who can hang on to the back of John Hammersley what ever he is driving ain't doing bad!

Chris, manifolds etc and most engine mods were already free so it made no odds.

[johnw]

Production BMW Championship
It's a great championship. Well and easily policed.
Close racing with in-house driving standards consistently policed and implemented.

Entry fees are BARC standard rate (£170 for 15 mins qually, 15 mins race- more at the expensive circuits. For example, £190 at Brands).

Ability to enter a second race (at a reduced rate) in the CTCRC Pre-93 series within their own class.
Yes it's a National championship providing full grids at each race thus far.
Any more info, try www.classictouringcars.com

[R59]

Having tight rules doesn't stop people from spending megabucks, having more "slack" rules allows for "scrapyard engineering" for those who like doing their own development (as well as letting those with deep pockets buy more of the best, and still come nowhere near first).

Some of us know people who spent more money on a cluster of cars in their posession than many of us did on houses, and they still didn't win!

Then you take the Rover 216GTi as an example - when the championship was running, if you didn't have a budget of 50K to run it, you weren't anywhere! And those rules were so tight you couldn't f*rt through the gaps! And what's more, the car was bog standard, except for the slicks. The money was spent making that bog standard car do the business.

So, having tight rules makes no difference to the cost of competing.

Rob.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by racing59

So, having tight rules makes no difference to the cost of competing.

Maybe, but tight rules can negate the effects of that spend.
Explain how £50K can be spent on a "bog standard" car Rob. I can't see where without cheating, or making it non-standard.

[big andy]

well said rob tight rules do not make for cheap racing it just means people spend more money try to extract the last 100th second,

[big andy]

testing ,testing ,and more testing,a blue printed engine 8 grand ,more testing ,seam welding more testing,tyre pressures more testing ccc used to run one(216gti) and there budgetted 50k

[R59]

Simple. You spend money on lots and lots of testing, to extract the best setup possible.

New brakes for every meeting, new tyres for every meeting, dyno-testing the shocks to make sure you've got the best shocks possible, buying lots and lots of "standard" springs, and testing them to make sure that you have the best set. Then spending lots of time to get the car as close to spot on as possible within the rules. To get that, you need a jig sheet, and a port-a-power! Add to that a crew to do the work, and a couple of re-shell's not to mention some panel damage to resolve.

I seem to remember the Tomcat turbo's were bigger money, requiring gearboxes, driveshafts

Welcome to the world of high profile one-make racing.

[Al Weyman]

That is exactly why we started the ModProds and I still think the rules for that championship are basically sound allowing drivers to be a little inventive. I think the biggest spend was on the power units and when guys started shelling out 5 and 6k on CVH engines it started to get silly. I did make a suggestion once that we try to introduce a rev limit but was told it could not be policed and probably right but if it could it may have been a way forward if a solution could be found.