Brabham BT15 - 10-Tenths Motorsport Forum

Chris Townsend · 15 Oct 2006, 10:20

I wondered if there are observers and owners out there who can add to this on early F3 Brabhams

F3.1.65, not known 65, 1966 Natalie Goodwin

F3.2.65 Bill Moss for Andrew Fletcher, then?

F3.3.65 Team Promecom for Jim Sullivan, then?

F3.4.65 not known

F3.5.65 Goodwin Racing, 1965

F3.6.65 Goodwin Racing

F3.7.65 Goodwin Racing

F3.8.65 Roy Pike, 1966-67 Ken Costello

F3.9.65 Jurg Dubler, 1966 Manfred Mohr

F3.10.65 David Cole, then?

F3.11.65 Ralph Caumont [was he an entrant rather than a racer?]

F3.12.65 Victor Auschlander

F3.13.65 not known

F3.14.65 not known

F3.15.65 Tony Huggett and kept 1966

F3.16.65 Martinelli Sonvico in Italy, various drivers

F3.17.65 Francesco Ghezzi, then 1966 Jurg Dubler

F3.18.65 Not known before 1969 when used by Tom Watson in FC in USA. Car destroyed in accident by Al Essig in 1972. This plate recently advertised on ebay as a means of "authenticating" your restored BT15...

F3.19.65 First known in 1968 when for sale by Ian Raby's firm, converted to FF. Imported to Canada as FF, and now restored to F3 there

F3.20.65 Tony Dean, 1966 to Barrie Maskell then 1969 Keith Wright and 1970 Alan Joy [Monoposto]

F3.21.65 not known

F3.22.65 not known

F3.23.65 not known

F3.24.65 not known

F3.25.65 DAF team to Keith St John then Ken Shepherd, Jimmy Johnstone, Chris Tipping and Doc Willoughby

F3.26.65 Chris Lambert to Lamplough as hire car 1967

was 26 all?

Chris

allenbrown · 15 Oct 2006, 16:21

Wow! Those books useful then, huh?

According to the Mike Lawrence book, there were exactly 26 BT15s in 1965 but unfortunately another 32 in 1966. And of course there were the 21 BT16As built for F3 in 1965 and the 32 BT18As built in 1966 for F3. I'd always assumed the story of Brabham in F3 was impossible but clearly I underestimated you!

Allen

Chris Townsend · 16 Oct 2006, 08:35

I fancy that the 32 B15s built in 1966 and the 32 B18s for F3 built in 1966 are more than a coincidence. More like Brabham built 32 F3 cars in 1966...
[Otherwise, where did they get the extra capacity from?]

Chris

Bryan Miller · 16 Oct 2006, 09:16

My factory ? production sheets list the following,

1965 , BT15 , F3 , 58 off .
1965 , BT16 , F2 , 12 off.
1965 , BT16A , F3 , 21 off.
1966 , BT18 , F2 , 6 off.
1966 , BT18A , F3 , 32 off.
1966 , BT18B , F.L. , 8 off.

I will dig up my notes overnight , but we have at least 3 and a 1/2 here.
A real problem with these will be the cars sent back to the works and updated to long rear upright BT18 spec. and forever after being called a BT18.

Did the ''T'' fall off your keyboard Chris.?????????

Bryan.

allenbrown · 16 Oct 2006, 09:19

I looked up the earliest version I have of the Brabham production list - dated 13 Sep 1967 - and it has the 32 1966 BT15s and 32 BT18As. Total Brabham production in 1966 was 86, only 15 higher than 1965 and just nine higher than 1967. Total F3 production was 47 in 1965 and 48 in 1967 so the 64 in 1966 is just as likely as 32 would be. Given the date that document was produced, it's hard to believe they'd have made a mistake of that magnitude. Also, Autosport's F3 review (20 Jan 1967 p91) says Brabham "sold some 32 genuine F3 cars, and another 32 F2 cars equipped for F3 engines".

However, a cursory look through 1966 F3 F1R data does make me wonder where all those BT15s went.

Allen

allenbrown · 16 Oct 2006, 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Did the ''T'' fall off your keyboard Chris.?????????

He's got a head full of Chevrons!

allenbrown · 16 Oct 2006, 09:26

Brian

According to this Autospot review, the BT18 also had 2.25 inches more space in the engine compartment so an original BT15 should still be recognisable from that.

Allen

Chris Townsend · 16 Oct 2006, 14:03

Did Brabham perhaps sell a consignment of BT15s to South America or somewhere similar for a series in 1966?
[I'm trying urgently to legitimate these 32 frames I've got in the shed...]

Chris

zucca · 16 Oct 2006, 20:04

Quote:

F3.16.65 Martinelli Sonvico in Italy, various drivers

Cars from Martinelli & Sonvico in Lugano Switzerland

I found two cars ex Martinelli & Sonvico, anyway there were four cars on the end of this Team. Not clear about the type of Brabham cars.

Brabham BT16 – F3-16-65 Martineli&Sonvico Racing Team Lugano CH, Adriano Ribolzi (Hobby) Lugano CH, Garage Storelli Ascona CH and now Angelo Delea Ascona CH

Brabham BT16 – F2-02-65 Roy Winkelmann (Jochen Rindt), Martinelli&Sonvico (Silvio Moser) Lugano CH, Hans Bütsch CH, Hans Obrist CH and now Konrad (Conny) Lutziger Rudolfstetten CH

For the other cars I have found different notices, one time BT10, different times BT15 as F3 and BT16 F3, the last one probably F2 car used also as F3. 1965 was also one or two BT16 F2 on for Silvio Moser used also as F3.

The Brabham BT06 –17-63 Junior car, was bought from Brabham by Rico Steinemann for the Charles Voegele Team CH as ex. Denis Hulme Car (race or spare), Silvio Moser Lugano CH, next not sure the order Fritz Heini CH, Hans Obrist CH, Heinz Schulthess CH, Marcel Schaub Lausen CH and now Chris Drake GB

Bryan Miller · 17 Oct 2006, 08:51

F3-3-65,

Early not known by me , however by the late 1960's converted to F.Ford , car is in Australia and has been for at least 20 or more years , owned at present by American Jo Bosworth , who resides some of the time in Aust. maybe all the time now , Jo has owned the car since , as far as I know the early 1970's , car is still in converted F.Ford spec. and apparently gets very little use , perhaps Jo converted the car in the USA , just plain don't have any more info.

BT 15 , F3-18-65 bits , subject of the weird Ebay auction is now owned by Steve Wood in Sydney.

BT15 , F3-16-65 , ex according to Ted Walker , Tony Dean in 1965 and 1966 , thence Barry Maskell 1967 , then Keith Wright 1969 , Alan Joy 1970 , 1971-1974 Graham Bowskill , 1975 Mike Whately fitted with March bodywork and ran in the F4 c'ship in U.K. 1976-79 unknown then to Peter Dorricott in U.K. rebuilt with BT21 bodywork , 1984 Simon Hadfield / Stuart Rolt , 1985 sold to Australian Max Lane retained till 1997 , sold to the late Nereo Dizane , retained in Nereo's estate and used on occaisions by Nereo's daughter , in correct 1.0 litre MAE spec.

3 more BT15s tomorrow.

Bryan.

allenbrown · 17 Oct 2006, 09:05

F3-11-65 bought from Robin Dunbar (Ireland) in 1983 by Denis Lupton and retained 2006.

allenbrown · 17 Oct 2006, 15:41

I've been talking to Ted about this puzzle of the missing 32 BT15s. Whilst he agrees that Brabham say they produced 58 BT15s, it looks like someone has made a mistake. Ted has notes on 26 BT15s in 1965 (i.e. up to F3-27-65 missing F3-13-65) but then just another six in 1966 (up to F3-33-65). We think the 26 total at the end of 1965 has been accidentally added to the 32 total at the end of 1966 to give a total of 58 instead of a total of 32.

Oddly, Ted's numbers for the extra six BT15s go F3-28-66, F3-29-66 up to F3-33-66. However, as all the BT18As appear to have F2 prefices, there wouldn't have been any clash.

So it looks like Chris is right and Brabham production for 1966 has always been significantly overstated. It's amazing if that's true and yet it's never been picked up before.

Allen

allenbrown · 19 Oct 2006, 09:06

More from the very helpful Mr Lupton:

BT15 F3-3-65 Jim Sullivan then to Geoff Oliver, I think then to Fred Opert, to Joe Bosworth?

BT15 F3-22-65 First owner Trevor Blokdyk

BT15 F3-33-65 Winfield Racing Mike Knight

This appearance of F3-33-65 in Denis's notes is particularly interesting.

Denis also mentioned that 'the English monthly mag "Motor Racing" (December 1965 p500) shows a photo of 4 BT15's being tested and delivered to Fangio,
to be sent to Argentina, with an order being placed for 4 more, which were subsequently delivered'. Denis believes the higher number of 58 BT15s is correct and quotes George Thornton's book as giving the higher number.

George Thornton, for those of you new to the name, kept detailed records of every car leaving MRD. I have seen some of his records but the fate of this book following his death some years ago is a mystery.

Allen

Alan Brown · 27 Oct 2006, 07:32

This car was raced in the Peter Hanson Trophy at Brands Hatch in June by Max Blees. He said that it had gone from Switzerland to USA.

The other BT15 in the race was Peter Williams' which carries a "modern" plate BT15-7-65.

Alan Brown

Alan Brown · 30 Oct 2006, 08:13

This BT15 was noted at Great Auclum in 1967, in the 1100 cc class, driven by J S Hooper.

Other hill climbing BT15s include the supercharged 1100 cc versions of Doc R A Willoughby and Jimmy Johnstone (later to Chris Dowson) - I assume these were different cars. Does anyone know their identities?

Alan Brown