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Old 21 Nov 2006, 16:40 (Ref:1771548)   #1
knighty
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ilmor F1 rotary valve project

now on a scale of 1 to 10 - this is deffo an 11 on the interesting meter ........Ilmor F1 spent years developing a Rotary valve F1 engine....... only for the technology to be banned by the FIA in the new engine regs.......well worth a read........I bet my pants that Mario Illien will be using this rotary valve technology in his new V4 800cc moto-gp bike engine.......if this technology will end up anywhere - I bet it will be on a motorbike.

http://home.people.net.au/~mrbdesign...utoTechBRV.pdf
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Old 23 Nov 2006, 00:15 (Ref:1772694)   #2
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These was another Italian based concortium developing this idea in teh late 80's as well. It made good HP but they always had reliability/budget issues.
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Old 23 Nov 2006, 19:01 (Ref:1773437)   #3
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You need to take most claims in magazines with a pinch of salt, the concept is not without some serious flaws.

Anyway, MotoGP is not about top-end power, its about have a 'good connection' between the riders throttle hand and the back tyre, i.e. smooth linear torque curve with good throttle response and progression. The engines currently produce 'only' about 250 bhp per litre which is well shy of the 300+ from an F1 engine. There is no good reason why they can't make more, its just that its not needed. They typically only run about 10% of the time at full throttle and are wheelie/traction limited in the first 4 gears!

If there was ever a good demonstration that power is not everything, you only have to look at the times from the new 800cc bikes which in some cases are faster than the old 990cc ones.
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Old 23 Nov 2006, 19:59 (Ref:1773473)   #4
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If there was ever a good demonstration that power is not everything, you only have to look at the times from the new 800cc bikes which in some cases are faster than the old 990cc ones.
One of the new 800s is Ilmor's poppet-valve engine, which has raced twice & been in the points. When you've done that, you're not going to throw that away & build a new engine using unproven techhnology.......which is what I said when he posted the exact same post in the formula 1 forum!

Rotary valve have come & gone over the last hundred years or so, but the good old poppet valve works!
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Old 24 Nov 2006, 09:59 (Ref:1773882)   #5
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Originally Posted by ian_w
You need to take most claims in magazines with a pinch of salt, the concept is not without some serious flaws.

Anyway, MotoGP is not about top-end power, its about have a 'good connection' between the riders throttle hand and the back tyre, i.e. smooth linear torque curve with good throttle response and progression. The engines currently produce 'only' about 250 bhp per litre which is well shy of the 300+ from an F1 engine. There is no good reason why they can't make more, its just that its not needed. They typically only run about 10% of the time at full throttle and are wheelie/traction limited in the first 4 gears!

If there was ever a good demonstration that power is not everything, you only have to look at the times from the new 800cc bikes which in some cases are faster than the old 990cc ones.

with a pinch of salt eh!.......I got the magazine feature form a post on the pistonheads forum - from an Ilmor employee who was involved with the design of the Ilmor F1 V10 rotary valve engine - it had been developed since the early 90's and they had run single cylinder test engines to 18000 rpm......looks like they had it sussed to me........believe me - it was well and truly going to hit the race track if the rules did not change ........and why did the rules change to ban rotary valves?........because Renault wrote the new engine regulations - John Hilton has admitted to this publically - I heard him say it at a technical lecture on stage - they knew Ilmor had a successfull rotary valve project underway - it was new technology that would have cost Renault a fortune - along with MMC pistons - so in an attemps to reduce cost and lap times - when Renault reccomended to Max Mosley at the FIA the 2.4 V8 engine regs - they also reccomended to ban MMC pistons and rotary valves - it got banned because it was a big loop hole in the rules, and it would have left all the other team standing. the drastically reduced C of G reduced frontal area and extra power would have wiped the floor with the other teams

if the magazine was telling porkies about it - why did they quote Ilmors name with it - because Ilmor approved it beforehand.......yes I agree - I have seen many "snake oil" projects in tech magazines - too many to be honest - but this one is deffo not snake oil........shame it will never happen.

But I agree with what Max Mosley says - F1 needs "road relevant technology" the bishop rotary valves just look too complex to end up in a road car - alternative fuels and regenerative braking looks the way forward for a bit of green-ness in F1.......and no - Diesel will never be in F1 - I think they will end up with regenerative braking and bio fuel derived from sugar beet.

Last edited by knighty; 24 Nov 2006 at 10:07.
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Old 24 Nov 2006, 16:42 (Ref:1774184)   #6
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I'm not saying it doesn't work in principle but it was never ready to hit the race tracks. How about problems with torsional vibration and oil consumption for starters?
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Old 28 Nov 2006, 09:30 (Ref:1776457)   #7
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But I agree with what Max Mosley says - F1 needs "road relevant technology" the bishop rotary valves just look too complex to end up in a road car - alternative fuels and regenerative braking looks the way forward for a bit of green-ness in F1.......and no - Diesel will never be in F1 - I think they will end up with regenerative braking and bio fuel derived from sugar beet.
Complex? Seems to be about the same level of complexity as standard valves to me - certainly fewer moving parts. Yes, there are technical hurdles though.

Guy here at work came up with an interesting modification. Why not just have one rotary valve for each bank of cylinders. Problems with sealing in places, but an interesting thought. That's even simpler. Imagine using the concept of the overhead camshaft, but not having to activate any tappets, valves etc, just having to rotate it. You wouldn't need a rev limiter!!!

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Old 28 Nov 2006, 10:11 (Ref:1776482)   #8
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I'm sure there was still a lot of testing to do. Must be a few harmonics that are keen to chew those gears to bits. 18500rpm on a single cylinder engine isn't really representative though.

It appears that the valve takes the position of the spark plug in the centre of the valve. This isn't exactly ideal?

Still sounds great, I'd love to see and hear it power a car.
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Old 5 Dec 2006, 12:40 (Ref:1782498)   #9
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Most of the development work on rotary valve engines was done by Roland Cross in the 1930's. His sytem is very similar to that which Ilmor are using except in the valve oil sealing arrangements. The Cross valve ran in single cylinder form in the TT in the late thirties, and a small generating set for aircraft using a Cross engine passed a Ministry of Supply (now Ministry of defence) 150 hour type approval test in 1945. Esso later collaborated with Cross in the Abingdon Cross engine in the 1960's(?), so that type of rotary valve development is not new at all. The reason poppet valve are still used is just economics and the sort of interest displayed by Renault. Cross was running 13:1 + compression ratios on 75 octane fuel before WW2. Perhaps that is the real benifit of the rotary valve, and maybe it will be needed in today's climate? Anyone knew what happened to the Coates rotary valve engine. I saw this running in V8 form some years back.
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Old 5 Dec 2006, 17:59 (Ref:1782704)   #10
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I think MV Agusta are using rotary valves on their road bikes arent they?

Not sure if its the same thing
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Old 5 Dec 2006, 19:42 (Ref:1782764)   #11
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I think MV Agusta are using rotary valves on their road bikes arent they?
NO! The word you're looking for is radial! They use normal poppet valves, but they are arranged radially in the head to allow a more nearly hemispherical combustion chamber.
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Old 6 Dec 2006, 13:20 (Ref:1783302)   #12
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Wasn't it Carlo Chiti that designed a W12 for the dreadful "Life" F1 cars, it had rotary valves, produced lots of power, but often didn't make it out of the pitlane, or even out of the garage.

If Max wants to encourage more "road relevant" engines, then they should return to conventional valve springs, none of this pneumatic or hydraulic stuff that they have at present.

Rob.
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