[Tech Issue] 2011 Pirelli tyres

[cmotd]

Originally Posted by wnut

I would much rather see a great driver drive off into the distance than a mediocre player win a game of chance

indeed, using Monreal as a positive template for F1 is showing a lack of vision. that was just russian roulette in cars that race

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

I would much rather see a great driver drive off into the distance than a mediocre player win a game of chance.

You could also see an average driver drive off into the distance if his average car just happened to be better at using its tyres. Where's the skill in driving on perfect tyres?

Originally Posted by wnut

The FIA have already skewed all the legislation against the lesser teams by making aero so dominant and not allowing them to test which makes corporate knowledge and experience all important, both of which are difficult in a new team.

If aero wasn't so dominant many so called 'fans' would start moaning about why it is that F1 cars are barely faster than GP2 cars.

Originally Posted by wnut

How many pay riders are there in MotoGP?

There aren't many pay riders, but the riders that are there have recently taken massive pay cuts. They can also no longer go testing during the season and practice sessions have been reduced.

Originally Posted by wnut

We all know why don't we?

No, not really.

Originally Posted by wnut

I think Pirelli should bring the tyre that remains consistant throughout the race () and the FIA should get its regulations right!

If you make a tyre that lasts a whole race weekend (and Pirelli, or indeed any tyre manufacturer can do that, because it's actually easier to do), the chances are that you will know the race result by the time that everything has settled down after the first few corners.

The only reason that there was barely any overtaking during the 2005 season (remember that?) was because Michelin and Bridgestone had to produce the grippiest tyre that lasted for 'just' a race distance in order that one could triumph over the other. They were in competition with each other over 6 years ago and both tyre companies still managed to use the current tyre technology to make the tyres last an entire race distance and still be grippy enough at the end of the race to hopefully beat their competition.

Oh, and there were pit stops for fuel then, which added to the feast of overtaking that was already taking place out on the track. *sarcasm mode*

Do you think Pirelli, if asked to do so, will make a tyre that provides even the slightest degradation or wear to allow for variation in pace? No they won't, and why should they? They aren't in competition with anyone. They could probably make a tyre that lasts all season, the lap times may be a little slow, but the main thing is that the tyres would be "consistant throughout the race". They certainly wouldn't need to make different compounds of tyre because you would always want to use the softest. But that might actually appeal to the 'greenies' amongst us.

Pirelli, at the Barcelona test:

"We could change. Ultimately, if the public perceive us as a bad product we can go more extreme and make a tyre that stays the same for the whole race, doesn't degrade, doesn't do anything."

"It's much easier to make a tyre that lasts all day."

Is that what you really want?

Originally Posted by cmotd

indeed, using Monreal as a positive template for F1 is showing a lack of vision. that was just russian roulette in cars that race

It was the most popular GP of the entire season.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

You could also see an average driver drive off into the distance if his average car just happened to be better at using its tyres. Where's the skill in driving on perfect tyres?
********
The difference would not be as big. You seldom see formula fords just running away from the pack and hiding. It is also why the cars should be able to run faster together than alone, so they tend to close up. Aero prevents this entirely, the cars are much faster alone.
*********
If aero wasn't so dominant many so called 'fans' would start moaning about why it is that F1 cars are barely faster than GP2 cars.
*******
If there is close racing the fans will not even notice, and the skill levels of the F1 drivers together with the greater budgets should keep the F1 cars faster, no problem. However outright lap speed should not be the only determinant of the top racing formula.
The F1s are currently slower on some circuits than the GP2 cars at the beginning of the race with a full fuel load on board.
**************
There aren't many pay riders, but the riders that are there have recently taken massive pay cuts. They can also no longer go testing during the season and practice sessions have been reduced.
***********
There are no pay riders because you either have the skill or you cannot compete.
**********
No, not really.

Above^
************
If you make a tyre that lasts a whole race weekend (and Pirelli, or indeed any tyre manufacturer can do that, because it's actually easier to do), the chances are that you will know the race result by the time that everything has settled down after the first few corners.

The only reason that there was barely any overtaking during the 2005 season (remember that?) was because Michelin and Bridgestone had to produce the grippiest tyre that lasted for 'just' a race distance in order that one could triumph over the other. They were in competition with each other over 6 years ago and both tyre companies still managed to use the current tyre technology to make the tyres last an entire race distance and still be grippy enough at the end of the race to hopefully beat their competition.

Oh, and there were pit stops for fuel then, which added to the feast of overtaking that was already taking place out on the track. *sarcasm mode*

Do you think Pirelli, if asked to do so, will make a tyre that provides even the slightest degradation or wear to allow for variation in pace? No they won't, and why should they? They aren't in competition with anyone. They could probably make a tyre that lasts all season, the lap times may be a little slow, but the main thing is that the tyres would be "consistant throughout the race". They certainly wouldn't need to make different compounds of tyre because you would always want to use the softest. But that might actually appeal to the 'greenies' amongst us.

Pirelli, at the Barcelona test:

"We could change. Ultimately, if the public perceive us as a bad product we can go more extreme and make a tyre that stays the same for the whole race, doesn't degrade, doesn't do anything."

"It's much easier to make a tyre that lasts all day."

Is that what you really want?
****************
If the aero was reduced, and the cars could run close together, racing would be possibe and you could pass a car because it had been baulked by a back marker, or it had slightly over cooked the entry into a corner or generated wheel spin entering the straight, or locked a wheel under braking. None of these possibilities arise when wake turbulence starts affecting the car 3 secs behing the leader.

Abusing a tyre would affect the amount of grip available throughout the race. Formula Fords again do not degrade tyres seriously during a race, unless you flat spot them, but they race and pass one another all the time.

It was the most popular GP of the entire season.

Montreal was just roulette. Again I would like to see the figures! How did it become the most popular when nobody knew the tyre debacle was going to occur before the race let alone Joe Public?

Thanks Marbot - engaging as always

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Montreal was just roulette. Again I would like to see the figures! How did it become the most popular when nobody knew the tyre debacle was going to occur before the race let alone Joe Public?

Thanks Marbot - engaging as always

It's not "roulette" if some guns had no bullets in them (some drivers/cars coped well) and some guns were full of bullets (some drivers/cars didn't).

It may not have been the best attended nor the most viewed race of the 2010 season, but it certainly rated very highly if not always the highest in most peoples assessments of each race in 2010. Lots of figures for that!

Chances are also that the Canadian GP will be a sell out this season.

[Marbot]

Pirelli on target for 2 or 3 stop races.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89798

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Pirelli on target for 2 or 3 stop races.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89798

Who said F1 was becoming processional?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Who said F1 was becoming processional?

Indeed. Can't understand why people would want it that way.

I would like to know which car won the simulation race.

[Spritle]

I have to believe the simulations are just that...speculation and when the cars are driven in anger that all may go out the window.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Spritle

I have to believe the simulations are just that...speculation and when the cars are driven in anger that all may go out the window.

Ummmm, no. The simulation will be highly accurate. This is science, this is
F1. They spend 100s of millions to race two cars 18 times in a year. The can afford to build highly accurate simulations

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

I have to believe the simulations are just that...speculation and when the cars are driven in anger that all may go out the window.

I'm sure that Pirelli also did comparisons with data for tyres that lasted the whole race distance that didn't wear or degrade. We have to assume that they can't have been happy with the results.

They may also have done simulations for fuel stops without tyre changes (2005), tyre changes without fuel stops (2010), and no tyre changes or fuel stops (numerous), to see what it was that made them not work too well either.

They may even have looked at re-runs of the 1986 Mexican GP a few times!

[wnut]

Marbot, do you work for Pirelli?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Marbot, do you work for Pirelli?

No.

I just like what they're doing.

I mentioned the 86 Mexican GP because it was the race that Gerhard Berger won in his Benetton on Pirelli tyres without stopping to change them.....

[Spritle]

Yup, everything is fine at Pirelli Marbot...

...this is how they planned it all along...

...exactly...

...except they now have a NEW plan:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/42645.html

IT seems to me that Pirelli Marbot is just covering their arse in case the naysayers are correct!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

...except they now have a NEW plan:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/42645.html

Not exactly a "new" plan. It's not like testing tyres during a season hasn't been done before.

No drivers complaining this week? Strange....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Not exactly a "new" plan. It's not like testing tyres during a season hasn't been done before.

No drivers complaining this week? Strange....

I wonder if that's because they have got more time, now the season opener is in Melbourne?

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

No drivers complaining this week? Strange....

How sad, nothing to talk about... not that it will stop someone...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

How sad, nothing to talk about... not that it will stop someone...

What are forums for if not for talking?

Actually, the drivers did have a GPDA meeting on wednesday night, where they discussed ways of helping Pirelli to get the tyres a bit better and other things too.

[Spritle]

They're talking, it's just not top of the news any more.

From this article:

Drivers have continued to report high levels of degradation at this week's Barcelona test with the speed difference between one lap and the next being measured in large chunks of time. Vitaly Petrov reported on Wednesday that when the tyres start to lose lap time they do not come back as the Bridgestones were known to do, and the drop off can be very dramatic.

"In one lap it [the degradation] is getting to half a second, then one and a half seconds and then two seconds and then three seconds," he said. "If you decide to come in [to the pits] one lap later you could lose two seconds and those that come in one lap earlier will have some advantage."

All this means strategy will be on a knife edge, with teams having no margin for error when making the decision to bring their driver in for a fresh set of tyres.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Well this is exactly what we wanted. Massive degredation gaps

Selby

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Well this is exactly what we wanted. Massive degredation gaps

Selby

Exactly.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89832

"According to sources at the meeting, a number of drivers expressed their concerns about the implications of the high degradation seen in early running of Pirelli's new rubber – and the impact that that could have on the way grand prix weekends pan out.

But rather than being most fearful about what it means for the racing, the drivers were more worried about how the big drop-off in performance would limit the amount of running drivers could do in practice."

So they made need more tyres.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Marbot

What are forums for if not for talking?

As with tyres it is all about whether the talking is of good structure, is durable, doesn't deteriorate and is hopefully entertaining.

[wnut]

Deal the cards, sorry I meant tyres!

HRT must feel they havea real chance now.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Adam43

As with tyres it is all about whether the talking is of good structure, is durable, doesn't deteriorate and is hopefully entertaining.

Pirelli, like me, are going for two out of the four, which isn't bad.

[Spritle]

Oh my goodness, they are talking again!

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/42901.html

How funny would it be if Bernie gets his wet dream and the Pirelli's can't handle it!

[ECW Dan Selby]

For once I agree with Ferrari. I think it'd be a massive shame to not let the drivers use it in practice/qually.

Selby