[Tech Issue] 2011 Pirelli tyres

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

If the engines were pushing over 25000 rpm to be competitive, failure is pushing the boundaries of engineering.

And the problem there is that no one needs an internal combustion engine that revs to 25,000 rpm and is worn out after 500 kms or so. It's just another technical cul-de-sac. It was something that only made sense in F1.

Now, if they could make one that lasts a million miles...........

In 2005 we had F1 racing where there was no tyre changing, and we have to assume because it only lasted for just the one season that it wasn't a resounding success.

Pirelli can make tyres that will last even longer because, unlike our 2005 protagonists, they are in competition with no one. How long do you think those tyres could last?

[wnut]

The point is, if an engine manufacturer can make their 8 engines last a season pushing 25000 rpm, that is a valid technical achievement and should be awarded with racing success. The spin off would be greater wear resistance and reliability in production engines when the racing development is applied there. It would also open the engine architecture to different configurations, and result in fuel consumption vs. power and rpm trade offs. This whole area is closed off.

Regards tyre degredation and wear, it is irrellevant whether a tyre has worn or degraded, the only issue is what level of grip and handling does it still offer.
You are also completely right that Pirelli is not faced with the technical challenge of a competing tyre supplier, so the tyres may as well last the whole race and performance differentiation should be found elsewhere. All the teams will rapidly calculate optimum tyre usages and guess what, all the strategies will only exhibit minor differences! In essence a waste of resources. (There is no refeuling because overtaking is supposed to occur on the track ...)

How much does Pirelli make on a set of tyres?

[Peralta]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

Lewis Hamilton is in for a tough season.. he will destroy those tyres. Button on the other hand will have an advantage!

The Pirelli tyres are a joke, we will definately see blow ups!

Teams are saying how there will be around 3-4 pitstops per race. I hope they are wrong. It would seem all the passing will be done in the pits not to mention the flow of the race would be interrupted an whatever passing that occurs will be very easy thanks to the moveable rear wing. I am starting to think this season may not be so classic after all. I can also see Redbull walking away with it. Vettel could be champion by mid season.

[Marbot]

IIRC, before the season opener in 2010 (Bahrain), all of the drivers were worried about how long the tyres were going to last in the race. There were estimates that 3 or even 4 stops would be necessary in order to complete the race distance. Consequently the race was run at a very slow pace, with all of the drivers expecting the tyres to rapidly degrade or wear.

As it turned out, they needn't have worried.

The fact is that they could have run the softest tyre for the entire race and would probably have still been able to set their fastest lap at the end of it!

The Bridgestone tyres were just too conservative, too good. The drivers never had to worry about tyre conservation to any real degree.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

The point is, if an engine manufacturer can make their 8 engines last a season pushing 25000 rpm, that is a valid technical achievement and should be awarded with racing success. The spin off would be greater wear resistance and reliability in production engines when the racing development is applied there. It would also open the engine architecture to different configurations, and result in fuel consumption vs. power and rpm trade offs. This whole area is closed off.

The FIA recently banned a long list of 'unobtainiums' that the engine manufacturers used to make their engines faster and more powerful. They are still now using some 'unobtainiums' to make their engines rev as high as they still do. These 'unobtainiums' are in very short supply on a global scale or are very, very costly to make and develop. Any use of them in production car engines would significantly add to the cost of each car produced. Also, chances are that even now, production car engines will last the life-time of the vehicle. Does any engine manufacturer currently need to make its engines last any longer, particularly with regard to diesel engines?

The same thing applies to tyres. Michelin and Bridgestone used very expensive materials to develop their tyres. Materials that could never be used to produce a cost effective road tyre.

It's been said before and will probably be said again - F1 engineers only make things that are relevant to F1, and sometimes accidentally, it may also be relevant to the real world. But very, very rarely.

[wnut]

"It's been said before and will probably be said again - F1 engineers only make things that are relevant to F1, and sometimes accidentally, it may also be relevant to the real world. But very, very rarely." Marbot above.

In order to apply a development you have to first develop it, and the point is that F1 is no longer in danger of developing anything at all, except infinitely refined aerodynamic bits and bobs within very artificial restrictions. Unrestricted battery free KERS for instance could possibly be a path that F1 could provide input in. The technology however should not be given a free ride and should have to fit into present weight limits.

Currently all we have is a semi-spec formula with cars that cannot race one another. No racing, no development, dwindling audiences, and half the grid going bankrupt - what are we achieving.
If the cars put on exciting wheel to wheel racing, like the gokarts it was suggested people should watch if they wanted to see racing, maybe these trends would begin to be reversed. The elephant in the room is busy suffocating the sport.

Back to tyres: these 4 and 5 sets per race have also not accounted for the additional wear under race conditions.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

There seems to be some confusion with regards to wear and degradation.

I would go for retreads myself if it makes us sit on the edge of our seats..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I would go for retreads myself if it makes us sit on the edge of our seats..

Indeed. Do we want to be entertained or blinded by science?

[cmotd]

There is another aspect to the rapid wear rate of the new tyres:

"At half distance (at races) there will be so many marbles on the track that the adjustable rear wings won’t help you"

"It’s because when you’re off the line, you have to brake so much earlier"

a quote from Vettel on why the Pirelli tyres are going to nullify the effect of the flappy rear wing

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

There seems to be some confusion with regards to wear and degradation.

Excellent news...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by cmotd

a quote from Vettel on why the Pirelli tyres are going to nullify the effect of the flappy rear wing

Another 'The sky is falling' quote from a driver already missing Bridgestones 'perfect' tyres?

Vettel needs to concentrate on his technique for overtaking where there are no marbles before he starts worrying about what may happen when there are some.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

what makes the tires dodgy? is it just that they dont last for very long or is it because they degrade in unpredictable and inconsistent ways?

It seems also that some are complaining of inconsistencies in the tyres..... meaning that two sets of the same compound are inconsistent with each other despite operating under the same conditions and parameters. (ie same track and conditions, same car, same set up, same driver, same compound, same warm up routine, but different tyre performance resulting.)

[Marbot]

Let's bear in mind that at the Abu Dhabi tests at the end of last season the tyres behaved similarly to the Bridgestones and since then Pirelli haven't tested the tyres on a circuit that has anywhere near decent track temperatures, and that will now probably remain the case until they get to Melbourne.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

15 laps....

That could be as many as 4 stops at some races.

However, the necessity to stop will not be dictated by the amount of fuel onboard, and will be dictated by the cars/drivers ability. So in that respect, it keeps everyone guessing.

Not according to Lewis Hamilton:
"Today I probably drove a bit easier on the first long run but the tyres just go away so fast and there's nothing you can do about it.

"The second run I tried to look after it even more and it was like driving an out lap it was just very slow and not particularly exciting. It lasted a little bit longer but it didn't feel like I was racing the car."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/mobile/...ne/9403045.stm

Adrian Sutil agrees with Lewis Hamilton:
"Selbst die harte Mischung ist nach 15 Runden komplett auf der Leinwand. Das ist wirklich brutal. Du denkst, du bist im Tourenwagen. Man fährt dann herum wie auf Intermediates."

AMuS: "Bringt es was, die Reifen unterschiedlich anzufahren?"
Sutil: "Das habe ich probiert. Aber dann fährst Du am Anfang 20 Prozent langsamer und dann hält der am Ende vielleicht eine Runde länger. Das richtige Rezept ist das auch nicht. Wir werden wohl alle zur gleichen Zeit und relativ oft an die Boxen kommen müssen."
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...n-3479752.html

Sutil says that even the hardest tyres are gone after 15 laps. He tried a different tyre management strategy by driving 20% slower in the earlier laps, but then the tyres only lasted one lap longer. He predicts drivers will change tyres very often and on the same time.

[Marbot]

They drove on those tyres at some Spanish circuits.....in February!

Perhaps what they are also saying is that the cars/drivers ability to make the tyres last needs working on?

And it was obvious from those tests and even listening to comments from different drivers in the same car, that some thought the tyres would provide them with an advantage, and others thought that the tyres would make life more difficult for them.

Strange, for example, that Button thought the tyres were OK on long runs? And the Red Bull and Ferrari teams didn't find much to complain about.

So, how on earth it can be that everyone will now pit on the same lap many times during the same race, is beyond me. Not all drivers and cars will 'use' the tyres in the same way. Not all strategies will be the same. There won't be any more: 'We expect everyone to come in and change onto the hard compound tyre at around lap 20, and then go to the end of the race', for example. Because if you do that and expect everyone else to do the same knowing that if they don't, they may only have to pit once again, that could be your race over! Can you make up the time lost in that pitstop on lap 15 if the other guy goes to lap 25 on his first set of tyres? On what lap will you make your second stop? (30?) On what lap will he make his last stop? (50?)

Interesting graphs showing tyre degradation comparison between Pirelli and Bridgestone.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/0...-you-thinking/

[cmotd]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Strange, for example, that Button thought the tyres were OK on long runs? And the Red Bull and Ferrari teams didn't find much to complain about.

Based on what's been said it seems that the pirellis may be very sensitive to lateral movement, with the cars that have the most downforce and drivers with the smoothest styles not having problems but cars and drivers that slide around a bit getting lots of wear?

[Spritle]

The last man out with the freshest tyres will win the race. That will be the strategy for 2011 along with who can give themselves the best a manicure while their speed is dropping 2 seconds a lap.

I still think throwing tacks on the track at different points in the race or loosening wheel nuts would add to the spectacle as well. The driver who manages blowouts and wobbly wheels the best would have the advantage. The excitement would be overwhelming!

I'm personally hoping for 7 tyre changes a race to add to the "greenness" of this farce.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by cmotd

Based on what's been said it seems that the pirellis may be very sensitive to lateral movement, with the cars that have the most downforce and drivers with the smoothest styles not having problems but cars and drivers that slide around a bit getting lots of wear?

So there's work to be done then!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

The last man out with the freshest tyres will win the race.

Just like last season then?

Is that the last man out after 2 stops ? 3 stops ? Or 4 or more stops ? Or will they all stop the same number of times ? It's not so easy to predict as last season.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Just like last season then?

Is that the last man out after 2 stops ? 3 stops ? Or 4 or more stops ? Or will they all stop the same number of times ? It's not so easy to predict as last season.

Last season the tyre drop off wasn't as significant so if the last man out on the freshest tyres wasn't considerably faster than the drivers in front, he wasn't getting past. This year with degradation rates as high and unpredictable as they appear to be, a last minute rubber change may have more appeal.

I'm afraid this year the last laps of the race will look like the same situation in quali, everybody making a mad dash to the pits for fresh rubber. Throw in some pit lane traffic or a binned stop and you will have 10-Tenths favourite overtaking manoeuvre, a pit pass.

Of course the knee-jerk solution to that will be banning tyre pit stops during the last 5 laps or another silly restriction on tyre usage but the end result will be the same, a contrived result based on attrition, not speed which isn't my idea of racing at the pinnacle.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Last season the tyre drop off wasn't as significant so if the last man out on the freshest tyres wasn't considerably faster than the drivers in front, he wasn't getting past. This year with degradation rates as high and unpredictable as they appear to be, a last minute rubber change may have more appeal.

I'm afraid this year the last laps of the race will look like the same situation in quali, everybody making a mad dash to the pits for fresh rubber. Throw in some pit lane traffic or a binned stop and you will have 10-Tenths favourite overtaking manoeuvre, a pit pass.

Of course the knee-jerk solution to that will be banning tyre pit stops during the last 5 laps or another silly restriction on tyre usage but the end result will be the same, a contrived result based on attrition, not speed which isn't my idea of racing at the pinnacle.

You still seem to think that everyone will do the same number of stops on the same compound of tyre, and that there will be a minimum of 7 or 8 stops!?

Also, you have to go back to 2004 if "speed" means racing at the pinnacle because F1 got slower after that season. And not too previous a time before that for many of F1s duels to be affected by large amounts of "attrition".

I'm betting that you're an 'arcade' racer as opposed to a 'sim' racer.

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by Marbot

You still seem to think that everyone will do the same number of stops on the same compound of tyre, and that there will be a minimum of 7 or 8 stops!?

It won't matter how many stops they do during the race, they all will still come in near the end for the fresh rubber for the last sprint to the flag.

Also, you have to go back to 2004 if "speed" means racing at the pinnacle because F1 got slower after that season. And not too previous a time before that for many of F1s duels to be affected by large amounts of "attrition".

Agreed, but not deliberately induced artificial attrition.

I'm betting that you're an 'arcade' racer as opposed to a 'sim' racer.

No actually, I'm a



Hence my desire for the same...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Spritle

The last man out with the freshest tyres will win the race. That will be the strategy for 2011 along with who can give themselves the best a manicure while their speed is dropping 2 seconds a lap.

I still think throwing tacks on the track at different points in the race or loosening wheel nuts would add to the spectacle as well. The driver who manages blowouts and wobbly wheels the best would have the advantage. The excitement would be overwhelming!

I'm personally hoping for 7 tyre changes a race to add to the "greenness" of this farce.

Why don't they just have a crap shoot and be done with it.

"The excitement would be overwhelming! "

Marbot's new F1 metal Irony rears its ugly head again!

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Marbot

....
I'm betting that you're an 'arcade' racer as opposed to a 'sim' racer.

Youre good, v v good

[Marbot]

Alonso says the Pirelli tyres could cause "uncertainty". Well, we wouldn't want any of that now, would we! Bring back those 'perfectly predictable' Bridgestones, I say!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/89674