Ferrari and Peugeot agreement on KERS ????

[Tom908V12]

Hi,


Very interesting article published today on MulsannesCorner website !!!

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsnov08.html





If true, then another link is born between F1 and Endurance Racing(after the common drivers of the series)

[ss_collins]

I don't think this is quite right - if anything its a knowledge transfer. The MGU and Batteries used in LMP and F1 are quite different. I've written a fair bit already on the differences between F1 KERS and LMP KERS - extracts

"“for a 24 race application where you want to store energy at every braking event and release it immediately afterwards, like you would at Le Mans the demand are different to Formula 1 with its regulations” explains Wildner. “Around the Le Mans circuit I think you have 17 points where you brake and eight opportunities to use the boost around the lap. During the race that totals thousands of charging and discharging cycles. In Formula 1 the regulations state that you can only have one cycle per lap, no more than 78 cycles (the number of laps at Monaco). So in one world you have around 5,000 cycles per race and in the other you have just 78."

and...


"in endurance racing we would like to have one battery last the entire season because teams have limited resources. That means that it will be a bit bigger and heavier than say a Formula 1 application where you have a system with a limited lifetime but is better in terms of size and weight."

Full article - http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...s-modular.html

[johntt]

Isn't another key difference between the F1 and LMP KERS that in F1 its made to make the cars go quicker, while in LMPs its being used properly, that is to improve the fuel efficiency of the cars.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

In Formula 1 the regulations state that you can only have one cycle per lap, no more than 78 cycles (the number of laps at Monaco). So in one world you have around 5,000 cycles per race and in the other you have just 78."

I thought the F1 regulations were merely a restriction for 400Kj of recovery and 6.67s of use at 80hp? That wouldnt necessarily restrict how many times you can recover and release energy.

[Marbot]

The regulations state that it can only be used once every lap.So everything will be optimised (batteries,brakes etc) for that one time.I'm now beginning to see why F1 KERS will have no use in road cars.

[Oldtony]

You are right of course Marbot.
F1 KERS is a great potential development opportunity being stiffled by absoloutely stupid drafting of the regulations.
Surely though those regs are going to modified in the light of experience, or will internal FOTA bickering, or Max adoptig his control freak attitude strangle it at birth?

[ss_collins]

Well Toyota and others have said it since the start - the F1 regs are too restrictive.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Well Toyota and others have said it since the start - the F1 regs are too restrictive.

Ironically, Toyota already confirmed it won't use KERS in the first races of 2009.

Any way, I think the rules are indeed too restrictive. The restrictions can actually make teams to decide not to use KERS as the advantages of KERS don't overcome the disadvantages (aero, weight and hence balance).

The introduction of KERS, which is almost forced by the FIA is not very unlikely to become a failure. It was brought as a revolution but we must remember that this technology was banned by the very same FIA back in 1999.

[Crazy_Pigal]

The way I read Mulsanne Mikes article is that Ferrari were going to use the 908 as a way round the testing ban, not to use the same type as system as Peugeot would be developing for LMP, this strikes me as Ferrari using some of that extra 80 million they got from their "special deal" with Bernie to cheat the testing ban. Not exactly in the spirit of cost cutting eh?

[Marbot]

We should look out for more of this 'proxy' testing IMO.

[ss_collins]

Yep I think thats more likely but that said - bear in mind the powertrain is also heavily restricted so what exacty would they be testing? I think it could be a knowledge transfer as mentioned above. Direct component transfer I can't quite fathom.

Look at the other restrictions - No wind tunnel exceeding 60% scale and 50 metres/sec to be used after 1 January 2009. Factory closures for six weeks per year, to accord with local laws.

Now looking forward they are going to restrict aero development more - so it will get to a point where Ferrari could comission via one of its sponsors the likes of Lola or Dallara to carry out a 'research project' basically boosting thier tunnel time. LMP's or similar could be used to develop new powertrain components for the 2013 regulations.

I'm very unsure about F1's direction at the moment

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I'm very unsure about F1's direction at the moment

Me too,but it will probably remain popular while ever it's still fashionable to put petrol into an internal combustion engine.

[Armco Bender]

Hard to see the Italians and the French getting together to build anything other than an army tank with 17 reverse gears that breaks down a lot.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Yep I think thats more likely but that said - bear in mind the powertrain is also heavily restricted so what exacty would they be testing?

The weight of KERS is still unregulated. The systems will weight about 30 kg which is quite much for Formula 1.

[ivanalesi]

I think this practice should be banned. It's very dangerous if all the teams start to seek ways to test their technologies in other forms of the sport. I guess we will soon have KERS development in DTM, WTCC, GP2 and Japanese GT, this may drive costs up in these championships and have negative effect to them as well as F1.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Hard to see the Italians and the French getting together to build anything other than an army tank with 17 reverse gears that breaks down a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maserati_Merak

So, when will we see a DTM Mercedes "testing" with a McMerc KERS?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

We should look out for more of this 'proxy' testing IMO.

Where there's a rule there are always people looking for ways round it.

[Crazy_Pigal]

Whatever happened to Ross Brawn's idea of limiting the teams actual budgets, surely the most level playing field is to give the boys 50 million each & let them decide where they spend it, you wouldn't need to limit each technology as they do now & it would stop teams wasting all that cash on finding ways round the regs! I guess it would take a fair bit policing, but there are plenty of spare bankers around now, I'm sure they'd make good accountants.

[FPV GTHO]

You would need some pretty draconian regulations to cap spending in F1 with the manufacturers. The likes of Williams and Force India might not be able to hide their spending, but where does Panasonic Toyota Racing start and Toyota Racing Development end? Or RBR/STR and RBT? You'd be looking at extending it right down to the supplier level which might not go down to well with some companies.

[ivanalesi]

It's the same in NFL, the team owners could channel % of the profits to some offshore account of the player's grandma, or become big fan of the cousin's furniture business or whatever...

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Pigal

Whatever happened to Ross Brawn's idea of limiting the teams actual budgets, surely the most level playing field is to give the boys 50 million each & let them decide where they spend it, you wouldn't need to limit each technology as they do now & it would stop teams wasting all that cash on finding ways round the regs! I guess it would take a fair bit policing, but there are plenty of spare bankers around now, I'm sure they'd make good accountants.

A budget cap won't work: manufactures can easily spend some extra money and say it was R&D for their road cars.

[fanfisique]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Pigal

The way I read Mulsanne Mikes article is that Ferrari were going to use the 908 as a way round the testing ban, not to use the same type as system as Peugeot would be developing for LMP, this strikes me as Ferrari using some of that extra 80 million they got from their "special deal" with Bernie to cheat the testing ban. Not exactly in the spirit of cost cutting eh?

The name of that loophole is:

OUTSOURCING.



Toro Rosso´s budged is the shortest in F1...bcose they "outsource" the design and development of their racecar to a Group Sister Company...and their Results are the same than those who had one of the Top4 Highest Budgets.

No big deal in Kers Testing Loophole.

[Marbot]

STR will have Ferrari engines and no doubt also their KERS for this season.Which could be either a good thing or a bad thing depending on how good/reliable it is.

Renault (with help from Nissan no doubt) will have their own system,so we'll see that bolted to the RBR cars.Honda/? may have a system ready to use,but that may depend on the power supply and also on who actually buys the team if anyone.

As far as 'testing' goes I suppose it all boils down to what vehicle you are 'testing'.Is it still possible to test KERS endlessly on last years car for example? Or on a couple of Super Aguri's that you may have got your hands on!

What actually constitutes 'testing' ?

[FPV GTHO]

Renault are using the same Magnetti Marelli system Ferrari are using IIRC.

[Marbot]

If that's correct,then we may have four teams on the grid using the same system..........

But I'm sure that I read somewhere that Renault have got their own?