"4 wheels off" - discussion

[alexhall]

If you repeatedly go fwo in order to gain/save a position, then penalising is the way to go. If two drivers both run wide (say at Sear) fwo and one driver overtakes another - then no report needed imo as both were fwo.

During the normal course of racing if the guy in the lead is sticking to the confines of the circuit, but the guy in second is using all the available tarmac and is catching the leader, he's gaining an advantage by going fwo and should be warned/penalised/etc.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

As a Clerk I want to know of any & all cases of '4 wheels off' whether in traffic or not.

So do we as a club please.
Any action should IMHO be left to the Clerk rather than each observer making a decision based on his/her own perspective.

Another reason for not wanting 4WO is that rejoining the circuit has in the past caused too many incidents. It also spreads the behaviour so that eventually everyone is off at each corner inside an out.

[Norbert]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

At that meeting drivers were briefed as to what would and would not be allowed at Sear corner (as I referred to earlier in the thread) - but simply, four wheels over onto the tarmac at Sear was not automatically an issue as the use of that part of the circuit has become common practice over a number of years, and indeed is advised by instructors. Seems pragmatic and reasonable to me.

As it happens, a number of drivers were penalised during the course of the weekend, based on the reports of the DSO.

Why don't they move the white line so that the 'accepted' racing line for Sear is within the racing boundary?

I know that some people might say that drivers will then push the envelope further but not there is not much much further to go there without risking damage to their tyres.

[pauln]

Originally Posted by Norbert

Why don't they move the white line so that the 'accepted' racing line for Sear is within the racing boundary?

I'd agree with this entirely - either shift the white line or enforce the rules where it stands. Anything else gives mixed messages to all concerned with some likely to be arguing that if 4WO is acceptable at Sear, why not elsewhere.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by johnw

Any action should IMHO be left to the Clerk rather than each observer making a decision based on his/her own perspective.

Exactly. We report what we see, clerks decide what action, if any, is necessary.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

OK Clear enough - so the answer is simply - don't go 4 wheels off at any time then (unless it is accidental)!

That's the rule. Simples

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by pauln

I'd agree with this entirely - either shift the white line or enforce the rules where it stands. Anything else gives mixed messages to all concerned with some likely to be arguing that if 4WO is acceptable at Sear, why not elsewhere.

I suspect it's only SOME clubs and SOME series that allow this. The BB is now clear on what is track and what isn't and that should be the rule unless drivers are specifically told otherwise.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Exactly. We report what we see, clerks decide what action, if any, is necessary.

In writing.....if you don't write it down, the Clerk has nothing on which to base their decision and nothing to put in front of the Stewards is the competitor is unhappy with the Clerk's decision.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by bravo

I watched the 750 motor club's first event at Snett on Motors TV last night. Apart from it being one of the most bad-tempered races I've seen for a while, the whole grid went wide at Sears, at some points 2/3 abreast, with even the car closest to the track still 4WO.

Nothing seems to have been done as even the worst offenders, including a certain car which was seen to be 'leaning' onto the car trying to overtake, still took up their qualified position on the grid.

Perhaps fines were levied, but surely grid penalties should be handed out first?

<cough> that wouldn't have happened to have been the stock hatch drivers by any chance? 'cos you see they have a bit of a reputation...

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Exactly. We report what we see, clerks decide what action, if any, is necessary.

I learnt that one very quickly as i started to flag. As a marshal all you can & should do is make a statement of fact. Its then for the clerk to take all those statements, including the drivers views, and make a judgement based on them. So as FC said we must report everything we see and let the clerk make a judgement on it, not make the judgement for them.

[bravo]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

<cough> that wouldn't have happened to have been the stock hatch drivers by any chance? 'cos you see they have a bit of a reputation...

er....

they might have been

[Lancsbreaker]

Thinks.......am I brave enough to ask Robert (CoC or God as he is otherwise known) about Sears etiquette this weekend at Snett?.......

Last year the NDB gave the above-mentioned vague "you can use it if you need it but its rough" sort of guidance.......

I'd be happier with a clear decision - preferably on the lines of the BB - it would re-inforce my learned behaviour that its faster to be slow in to Sears and get the car turned in so you can apply full power, rather than scrabbling around on the rough stuff on the outside......took me most of the race last year to learn that

[m1fcf]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I'd be happier with a clear decision - preferably on the lines of the BB - it would re-inforce my learned behaviour that its faster to be slow in to Sears and get the car turned in so you can apply full power, rather than scrabbling around on the rough stuff on the outside......took me most of the race last year to learn that

that sounds like it gives you an advantage that you can exploit. Let the others run over the rough stuff while you remain fast and smooth on your own line?

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by m1fcf

that sounds like it gives you an advantage that you can exploit. Let the others run over the rough stuff while you remain fast and smooth on your own line?

I can but try.......we'll see tomorrow

[JimW]

Originally Posted by johnw

So do we as a club please.
Any action should IMHO be left to the Clerk rather than each observer making a decision based on his/her own perspective. . .

Of course. But unless the clerk "rewards" this behaviour by feedback to the observer at the time (of decision, not the incident), then the observer will soon stop making reports which "appear" not to be leading to any decision.

Not all clubs (individual clerks?) are very good at providing feedback. Present company excepted naturally.

Regards

Jim

[johngee]

We do try - honest . You have my permission to smack me round the head when I'm guilty of not giving feedback.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by JimW

But unless the clerk "rewards" this behaviour by feedback to the observer at the time (of decision, not the incident), then the observer will soon stop making reports which "appear" not to be leading to any decision.

Is there a prescribed method for this feedback Jim?

[Richard Duvall]

At Brands Hatch today there was a constant stream of requests to Startline for Black & Whites, with a couple followed up with Blacks! Can only assume that a tough line was being taken on 4 wheels off. Didn't see any myself as I was on Post 23.

[Lancsbreaker]

I was told that the briefing for todays drivers at Snett was that four wheels off at Sears WOULD be penalised......presume we'll be told the same tomorrow

[Al Weyman]

I think 4 wheels off whether by accident or over doing it (what happens next time if you are driving out of your comfort zone, you take someone out?) should be reported, if it was a mechanical failure fair enough but i think that would be obvious as the car would be retired.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by johnw

Is there a prescribed method for this feedback Jim?

I don't know of one. From experience it has varied from the telephonists in RC being asked to pass a message, to a clerk stopping to have a word when time permits between sessions or to the marshals' briefing on the Sunday outlining what the stance of the clerk was to certain things on Saturday and what they intended to do on Sunday.

Unless you want us to modify our behaviour because of the feedback ("Ignore the new markings for today - they are clearly wrong") then a message towards the end of the day suits me.

Regards

Jim

[exflagman]

I seem to recall a certain observer getting rather irate about several drivers repeatedly cutting the corner at the Mallory Esses a few years ago - he eventually decided that he had had enough and marched along the banking to a spot where the drivers could see him clearly as they cut the corner and rather theatrically proceeded to note down the numbers on his clipboard - this quickly had the desired effect and corner cutting ceased.

It's not what you do its the way that you do it!

[sunny.traveller]

At Brands Hatch this weekend, Post 8 reported a lot of corner cutting at Graham Hill Bend. Liz our Post Chief used up reams of paper writing it all down and it was very gratifying to hear Race Control call for Black-and-white flags after we had called in cars for corner cutting three times. As we could also hear over the scanner Bryan on startline confirming the flag had been shown, we were very quickly able to see who was then behaving (or not) after they had been shown the black-and-white, and indeed black flagged. That was excellent feedback.

It was also interesting to see in which series almost all of the cars cut that corner, and then also see the other races where no-one did!

[andy97]

As a driver in the Tin Tops race at Snetterton this weekend I attended the drivers brief. The rules on staying between the white lines were made explicitly clear. I was then amazed in the race to see this instruction blatantly ignored by a very large proportion of drivers at the second corner, Sear, throughout the race. I was intent on obeying the rules (in case it was me that someone decided to make an example of) but some cars were so far off the track that they were half way to Thetford. I waited for the signes dictating the "stop & go" penalty for various drivers but none came. I have no idea whether the errant drivers were reported to the Clerks but either the rules need to be enforced, the track needs to be changed or the rule (if it is impossible to police) should be removed from the BB. Rules that can't or won't be enforced are a waste of time, and as a driver I want consistancy. As it is, I am convinced that in attempting to obey the rules, as briefed, my lap speed was compromised compared to others (and I need all the help I can get!!)

[Steven Humphrey]

Sear & Paddock Hill seem to be the 2 main culprits in the UK. Haven't been to Brands for years (and never as a marshal) so can't really comment on that but I was at Snett in March for 750 MC. In the morning briefing, PCs were told to report ALL FWO, especially at Sear (where I was posted, as incident). I think our PC said something along the lines of -'well if that's what they want, that's what they'll get' and proceeded to record every car that ran wide (with the help of another marshal) for the first 2 sessions. I would guess that at least half of all drivers went FWO in these 2 sessions & they were all reported. It was clearly a problem so a DSO was sent to us & after one session decided (I'm assuming with the COC) to let them use the extra tarmac but NOT the rough concrete patch at the end of this. Anyone using this more than 3 times was black & white flagged, the blacked accordingly.

To me, this just clouds the rules. Why put this rule into the BB when it is only being applied at some corners? I understand that instructors encourage drivers to use this extra tarmac at Sear. If that is the case, then make it part of the track! If not, stick a bloody great kerb there and change the teaching methods as this just encourages rule breaking and makes PCs jobs a whole lot harder.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by andy97

As a driver in the Tin Tops race at Snetterton this weekend I attended the drivers brief. The rules on staying between the white lines were made explicitly clear. I was then amazed in the race to see this instruction blatantly ignored by a very large proportion of drivers at the second corner, Sear, throughout the race. I was intent on obeying the rules (in case it was me that someone decided to make an example of) but some cars were so far off the track that they were half way to Thetford. I waited for the signes dictating the "stop & go" penalty for various drivers but none came. I have no idea whether the errant drivers were reported to the Clerks but either the rules need to be enforced, the track needs to be changed or the rule (if it is impossible to police) should be removed from the BB. Rules that can't or won't be enforced are a waste of time, and as a driver I want consistancy. As it is, I am convinced that in attempting to obey the rules, as briefed, my lap speed was compromised compared to others (and I need all the help I can get!!)

Hi Andy,
I understand your frustration and agree with what you've said but, as flag marshal at Sear, on Sunday, we were told, at our briefing, that FWO rule would be relaxed at Sear. I don't know if any of the drivers were told this but, as you say, most of the drivers (99.9%) in every race had FWO on the exit of Sear. As we only had 2 marshals at Sear Out (1 flag, 1 incident) and a phone, it would have made our job virtually impossible to report all this, especially if there had been an incident. I think it's also fair to say that, in most cases, nobody gained an advantage as all the competitors in a race were doing it. If you decided to stick to the rules and and your lap times, quite obviously, compremised for doing so, then I feel very sorry for you. The other thing that shows a lack of consistency is, I believe, drivers were given a "stop/go" penalty for FWO at Russell.
I agree that something needs to be done, either tarmac the run off and extend the corner or put a big curb round the outside, as the have done at the Esses.