Appendix K clarification,Imp

[John D]

Hi guys,I am posting here in the hope that the collective 10/tenths knowledge base would be able to help clarify a couple of questions.

A friend,Doc Fredrik Knutsen,well known Imp racer,is having a bit of bother with the App K rules,which,to me,make no real-world sense.

I realise that,whilst the engine block issue may well be a problem,surely the transmission query must be wrong.

George Bevans and every other Imp I have read of,in period,used Jack Knight gear ratios.Certainly Bevans 3 championship years,his and all the other Imps competing in the British championship used them.

I will insert Docs'original enquiry,copied from another forum below,in the hope that some light could be shed on the subject.

Thanks in advance

John

Docs' post-
"As people who frequent this forum may have noticed, my son Matt and I run Imps in Historic racing in the Nordic countries.
The rules are as per FIA Appendix K, we run to period G2, ie 1970-72. So, if you try to build a car close to the 1971 Bevan specs, you would be a shoo-in for an HTP, right?
Not so. Unfortunately.
Turns out there are two major obstacles.
One is to do with engine blocks. It seems that the FIA will not allow the use of the 930 Sunbeam block, despite the difficulties of obtaining the "straight-edge" Imp blocks over here. Three of our pool of 998 race engines are built on 930 blocks, while the fourth is a pukka Hartwell-built engine in the Imp block, built for me originally in 1979, and unused since a 1982 re-build.
Having the three "new" engines re-done to pacify the FIA will be a financial stretch, not only in finding suitable blocks and having them machined for 998 liners, but also to find Imp crankshafts, having them nitrided, fitted with steel flywheels, and balanced. With the 930 crank using five flywheel bolts, neither of these items are interchangeable with those of the Imp.
The other problem concerns the transmission. Now, there is no doubt that in period, alle the cars ran 4-sp Knight dog boxes.
However, the FIA has decreed that removing synchro rings was not App K legal back then, so, incredibly, Knight dog boxes are not legal in 2010, in Historic racing cars that purport to reproduce the 1970-72 era.
The Chrysler c/r synchro boxes had ratios for cars running 12" wheels in rallies, but when using rear tyres like those run by Bevan in 1971 the gearing is all wrong. It appears that there is a company in Finland that does any Imp ratios you want, for a synchro box, which is what you need to placate Mr FIA. But I am looking at about four grand to have a new c/r synchro box built up...and I have got three racing Imps...
I have one original synchro box which works pretty well, but my other car, which is the re-shelled 1970 Ivor Goodwin car, came with the gearbox that was fitted to the car in 1971, a Knight four-speed dog box and for the sake of originality on a car with a continous racing history, I am most reluctant to fork out for a "new" and different gearbox.
So, do any of the British Impsters have an HTP? And if so, to whats pecs are the cars with reagrd to engine blocks and transmissions?
Any comment would be much appreciated."

[terence]

Not being an expert on Imp's,but having had similar issue's with a car I had been involved with,hopefully this will be of help.You are quite correct about the 'Standard' blocks being rare,however,they can be obtained,the thing about the Dog Box is that they were never homologated in period,the FIA will not accept that design,I had months of mailing/telephone call's trying to get them accepted for the Three Sync MGB Gearbox,all a total waste of time/energy!
Likewise for the 930 Block,if it was not homologated 'in period',it will not be accepted as a suitable replcement.
Anyone would get the impression that the FIA are not particularly helpful.!!

[MGDavid]

Appendix K is ALL about what's on the homologation forms, and if it's not, it should be.
If your cars don't conform to Appendix K then go and race them somewhere else;

[John D]

Hmmm.I'm genuinely puzzled and I'm a novice about this kind of stuff,just thought I'd try to help.
So,even though it's known and proven that parts were fitted and used,in period,in British and European championships,they aren't allowed in historic racing nowadays?

Have I got that right?

John.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by John D

Hmmm.I'm genuinely puzzled and I'm a novice about this kind of stuff,just thought I'd try to help.
So,even though it's known and proven that parts were fitted and used,in period,in British and European championships,they aren't allowed in historic racing nowadays?

Have I got that right?

John.

Hmm , not necessarily. I seem to recall that the Bevan Imps in Touring car racing in the 70's were not running to Appendix J but to the RAC rules.If so that would rule out the car specifications. Equally those cars running in the RAC Rally championships-or to RAC rallying regulations-for sure were not running Appendix J. At that point your friend in the Nordic countries has a problem.
In FIA Historic motor sport being old and /or period correct does not automatically mean that it will comply with Appendix K.

[John D]

Thanks Jeremy and Terence,I'm slowly beginning to realise that this Appendix K thing is a bit of a minefield.
I've done a search and whilst there are a lot of posts about the implications of App K,there isn't much about what it actually is.
More research needed,I fear.

[Good Times]

John D,
The most successful Imp,s circuit racing in Briton in period were the Alan Fraser cars. These ran in the British Saloon Car Championship & won it.
This championship was run by the RAC, not the FIA under different rules.
Hence the use of the JKD transmission etc, etc.
That is why they never ran in Europe.
Alas, I am pretty sure your car would not be legal in FIA.

[zefarelly]

and its exactly why lots of Imps prosper well (under gp5 regs) in HRSR and are never seen racing in U2TC.

Are they homologate with drum brakes pre 66 ? (discs later)

Tony Lanfranchi drove a fraser imp in period I think, not that it'll help!

[John D]

Originally Posted by Good Times

John D,
The most successful Imp,s circuit racing in Briton in period were the Alan Fraser cars. These ran in the British Saloon Car Championship & won it.
This championship was run by the RAC, not the FIA under different rules.
Hence the use of the JKD transmission etc, etc.
That is why they never ran in Europe.
Alas, I am pretty sure your car would not be legal in FIA.

They did run in Europe though.Bevan and McGovern raced at Zandvoort and George supplied engines and attended events in Finland.I'll have to find my copy of Martin Jones book wherever it is.I think that some of the British Championship races were also European championship rounds,so would that mean they were FIA sanctioned?
BTW,Bevan and McGovern won the British championship 3 times in a row.
Alan Frasers cars were fantastic and one wonders what they would have achieved had the factory remained loyal to them,but I reckon George Bevan won more races.(Class wins,right enough)

I've been doing some reading.Jeez,I thought historic racing was having fun in old cars.
There seems to be more rules than competitors.And all the different series?

[ministrator]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Appendix K is ALL about what's on the homologation forms, and if it's not, it should be.
If your cars don't conform to Appendix K then go and race them somewhere else;

A truth with modifications...I've been racing a Cooper S in pre-65 (F) since 2004. Let me tell you - however much these cars conform to App K, they are nothing like the cars used back in 1965. Most of them are purpose-built racers with stiffened shells, serious roll cages, billet cranks, F1-spec rods & pistons, dogshift boxes (watch any incar video from last years Goodwood-race), speed-shift systems, titanium components, modified suspension front & rear, special cooling systems, fuel, distributors, starters, dynamo, camshafts etc etc - revving to 9000 RPM and pushing out 120bhp+. A competitive car can be built for about £30.000+.

In 1965, they were cars from the showroom stripped of unneccessary interior, a modified head, carbs and exhaust. That's about it.

Any current competitive App K Cooper S 1275 would run about 10secs faster laptimes than the best car on the track in 1965.

Besides - In Scandinavia, there is only historic racing and a couple of other formulae, so we can't just take our cars and race them somewhere else...

[limjamrace]

Apart from being reshelled the Imp in question uses the actual same running gear as it did in 1970-72...The straight edge block and the transaxle which is now deemed illegal due to no syncro!
I don't know who is/was responsible for homologation at the time (Chrysler were at no time involved with the brilliant Bevan team i believe) but it seems a case of non-foresight..
In another case in the different direction the chap with the Cooper S has the direct point...His car was never like the one in 1965!
It seems to me that only Fiat had the foresight to get it right with the likes of www.ScuderiaTopolino.com building such a legal homogated racer..Even down to having an opened rear engine lid to cover the exotic exhaust system!
Canny or what!
I wish Doc Knutson all the best in overcoming this problem. Perhaps a consultation with his engine supplier/worker Reggie Pattern may overcome this as he delves in transaxles as well as engines..
As for the 930 B1 block !
I would be concerned as to the use of this as it was introduced some time later and isn't really an original item..
Cannot understand the meaning of hard to come by straight edge blocks as in UK they are plentyful awaiting wet liner conversion..Cheap as well!
Yours David L .Llewellyn Imp Motorsport

[Doc Knutsen]

Originally Posted by John D

Hmmm.I'm genuinely puzzled and I'm a novice about this kind of stuff,just thought I'd try to help.
So,even though it's known and proven that parts were fitted and used,in period,in British and European championships,they aren't allowed in historic racing nowadays?

Have I got that right?

John.

That is it, precisely. The 1970-72 RAC British Touring Car Championship winner, the Bevan Imp, would not be eligible to race in FIA Period G2 races to-day. If you had mothballed this car, you would need to build an new gearbox for it to be legal to-day, using parts that were not even available in 1970-72.

[John D]

Ok,I've been doing some reading,thanks to Martyn Morgan Jones great book on George Bevan,I've found that the 1972 championship was run to FIA APP J rules.However,I'm unable to find out exactly what APP J actually is?
I've done a couple of searches,but no luck so far.Does anyone know where I could find the relevant information and how APP J and APP K relate to each other?
Thanks

John

[Doc Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Good Times

John D,
The most successful Imp,s circuit racing in Briton in period were the Alan Fraser cars. These ran in the British Saloon Car Championship & won it.
This championship was run by the RAC, not the FIA under different rules.
Hence the use of the JKD transmission etc, etc.
That is why they never ran in Europe.
Alas, I am pretty sure your car would not be legal in FIA.

You have got things slightly mixed up. The BTCC was run under FIA Gr 2 rules up to and including 1965, but it was changed from 1966 to be run to the much more liberal FIA Group 5 regulations.

Hence, this period saw such wild cars as MAE engined Anglias and FVA-engined Escorts. The Fraser Imps were also run in this period, and they were to Group 5 specs. Alan Fraser's team quit after the 1968 season.

For 1970, the British championship reverted to FIA Group 2 and the first three seasons were won by the Bevan Imp, driven by Bill McGovern.
It is to this period, 1970-72, that my cars are built.(FIA Period G2)
The RAC championship was run to FIA Group 2 regulations, and the Imps did compete under these regulations internationally, with a lot of success in Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden and in Finland.

Indeed my car started as the Ivor Goodwin machine that was one of Bevan's contemporaries. After the BTCC went Group 1 in the aftermath of the 1973/74 fuel crisis, the Goodwin car was sold to Chrysler Sweden and run in the Swedish TCC, driven by ABBA drummer and ex F1 pilot "Slim" Borgudd, in 1974/75, after which it was sold to club racer Mats Warg who modified it with Rawlson panels in order to save weight, the sold it to me in 1979 when I ran it in Nordic club racing for two seasons.In 1982 I sold it to a gentleman called Oivind Larsen when I bought a Maguire space-frame car, the ex-David Enderby machine.

Larsen dismantled the old Gr 2 warrior with a view to rebulding it, but got sidetracked into Sports 2000 racing instead. He had stored the Imp's components very carefully, and when I got interested in Historic saloons in 2004, I was able to buy back my old Imp for a re-build back to its 1971 specs. It needed a re-shell job, as the original had been hacked about too much for the glass-fibre panels to be fitted, but all the mechanical bits are the same as they were in 1972.
But in order to be legal for G2 to-day, instead of using the original Knight transaxle, I have to build an entirely new c/r gearbox using synchro mechanism, the parts for which were not even available in 1972.

[Peter Mallett]

If it's built to Group 2 it would fit nicely into Masters Proto and Touring 70s.

http://www.themastersseries.com/reso..._Regs_2010.pdf

[Lancsbreaker]

Shipping the car to and from Norway for each race could be pricy, though?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

If it's built to Group 2 it would fit nicely into Masters Proto and Touring 70s.

http://www.themastersseries.com/reso..._Regs_2010.pdf

this might be logistically challenging if the cars are based in Norway !

[Al Weyman]

Also be lapped within 5 minutes by Broadspeed V12 Jag Coupes, BDA Escorts, 4 cam Capris etc etc etc! Get it outin the CTCRC championships, emminently more sensible, cheaper and without that sort of opposition!

[Doc Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

If it's built to Group 2 it would fit nicely into Masters Proto and Touring 70s.

http://www.themastersseries.com/reso..._Regs_2010.pdf

Much as I love visiting the UK, carrying our pair of Historic racers across the North Sea for a week-end race six or seven times a year would be a bit of a stretch

[John D]

Ok,I found the app K regs and the list of homologated cars.
Given that most of the Sunbeam Imp ones seem to be missing and that it's known and documented that George Bevan and others used the JK boxes,in period,in FIA sanctioned events,then surely it would be allowed?

Anone been down this road before?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Doc Knutsen

Much as I love visiting the UK, carrying our pair of Historic racers across the North Sea for a week-end race six or seven times a year would be a bit of a stretch

hmm,

Well there's definitely Brands and Snetterton, but you don't have to cross the North sea for Spa, or indeed Spain and Portugal.

[Richy_Rich]

Well, I suppose there's a bridge between Denmark and Sweeden. But even getting to Spa from Norway is going to be a hell of a round trip - like 2x the length of the UK.

[Al Weyman]

Well i used to work on Imps at Nathans and IMHO the gearbox was a load of crud and even knocked out on the road cars with standard power. I really cannot see the Bevan, Nathan Imps etc. using a standard gear set!

[Richy_Rich]

How do they check anyway? I mean I suppose you could hear the difference in a straight cut box at the track, but for other stuff... Do they come round your house and make you strip the engine down? Even if they do, what's to stop you swapping your 'period mods' back in once they've gone?

I guess I don't really get the point of the FIA stuff. If this guys' Imp raced at the time, in the same spec it is now then, er, what's the point again?

[Al Weyman]

Exactly and what I have always banged on about with this Apps K stuff. In period it was almost impractical with much more at stake with manufacturers reputations etc, how on earth is it feasable now 40 odd years later without the knowledge and expertise of the scruts at the time checking current models for a bit of basically club motorsport. I hate to repeat it but its why I race in CTCRC as to me its more honest and doable.