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7 Apr 2011, 19:37 (Ref:2860289) | #1 | |
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Ralt Rt20-486 F.3000
Anyaone can help locating the original driver and team
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7 Apr 2011, 23:44 (Ref:2860357) | #2 | ||
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Well I know that according to the race entry list, RT20 #486 was used in 1988 at the 3rd Birmingham Superprix, (the FIA Formula 3000 race held on the Birmingham Street Circuit, England August 29, 1988) by Pavesi Racing for Fabio Mancini. He failed to qualify.
#15 Fabio Mancini Pavesi Racing Ralt RT20 /486/Ford Cosworth DFV DNQ That was in 1988 though.... However, by tracing back a couple of years I offer the following thoughts. I believe the only team (in Europe anyway) using Ralt in 1985 were the works team..... but the works 20's in 1985 were officially RB20's as the B was used for cars running Bridgestone tyres. (Some entry lists refer to them as RT20's but officially the Bridgestone shod works cars had an RB chassis prefix) 1985 Ralt Racing Mike Thackwell Ralt RB20-Cosworth John Nielsen Ralt RB20-Cosworth In 1986 the only European entries using RT 20's are as follows #4 Ralt Racing Ralt RT20-Honda John Nielsen #5 Ralt Racing Ralt RT20-Honda Satoru Nakajima #5 Ralt Racing Ralt RT20-Honda Mike Thackwel #5 Ralt Racing Ralt RT20-Honda James Weaver #16 Bromley Motorsport with Rial Ralt RT20-Cosworth Volker Weidler #16 Bromley Motorsport Ralt RT20-Cosworth Roberto Moreno #27 Arno International Ralt RT20-Cosworth Mario Hytten #28 Bertram Schäfer Racing Ralt RT20-Cosworth Altfried Heger #40 Pavesi Corse Ralt RT20-Cosworth Luis Perez Sala #41 Pavesi Corse Ralt RB20-Cosworth Pierluigi Martini * NOTE RB 20 was original Bridgestone (hence RB prefix) shod car (1985 ex works?) #41 Pavesi Corse Ralt RT20-Cosworth Pierluigi Martini 41 original entries. 20 March 86B's sold. 7 Lola T86/50's sold + 2 works cars. 4 Ralt RT20's sold + 2 works cars. 1987 Pavesi used RT 20's at 3 rounds (Pau, Pergusa and Jarama) with RT21's for the balance, but the RT20's were used oddly not rounds 1,2,3 but at selected races mentioned. These in the following list are the only RT20's used in the European championship in '87 according to entry lists. The works and others were all onto RT21's by then. #3 Pavesi Racing Ralt RT21-Cosworth (Other than Pau, Pergusa and Jarama) Pierluigi Martini (I) #3 Pavesi Racing Ralt RT20-Cosworth (Pau, Pergusa and Jarama) Pierluigi Martini (I) #4 Pavesi Racing (Other than Pau, Pergusa and Jarama) Ralt RT21-Cosworth Paolo Barilla (I) #4 Pavesi Racing (Pau, Pergusa and Jarama) Ralt RT20-Cosworth Paolo Barilla #37 Racetech 3000 (Only Imola ... March chassis used mostly) Ralt RT20-Cosworth Mario Hytten #39 Bertram Schäfer Racing (Part time entrant) Ralt RT20/Ford Cosworth Altfrid Heger Given we know that RT20 #486 was with Pavesi in 1988, and that they had owned and used two RT20's in both 1986 and 1987 (the RT20's for a couple of rounds,) it would seem highly likely that Pavesi had owned #486 from new in 1986. Of course nothing is for sure based on that, but it seems unlikely that a team would buy a used RT20 in 1988 when they already had two that were barely used in 1987, left over from their 1986 campaign.. It should give you a solid base to make some enquiries from. Hope it is of at least some help. |
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8 Apr 2011, 00:23 (Ref:2860361) | #3 | ||
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If its got traces of Orange paint then its most likely Piero's, if its blue then Sala's. I hadforgot they were still trotting them out a couple years later, I know Piero preffered it to the 87 car also. Boy was he quick when he got out of the RB20 and into the RT20 - then again the RB was designed for Bridgies, not Avons which became the single tyre in 86. Piero and Lusi Sala were so quick that summer.
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8 Apr 2011, 00:31 (Ref:2860362) | #4 | ||
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I dug up another couple of references to the Pavesi RT20's in 1988, other than Mancini at Birmingham:
#15 Pavesi Ralt RT20 - Judd Cathy Muller #15 Pavesi Ralt RT20 - Mader Cosworth Wladimiro de Tommaso I have not checked what races that they actually entered, only that they were registered in the championship for 1988 under the #15. The #15 entry of Pavesi was more normally used for Barbazza in an RT22 with either a Judd or Mader Cosworth engine.. #15 Pavesi Ralt RT22 - Judd Fabrizio Barbazza #15 Pavesi Ralt RT22 - Mader Cosworth Fabrizio Barbazza Edit: OK just checked the entry lists. As far as the Pavesi #15 goes, Muller DNQ'd round 1 at Jerez, followed by Barbazza who qualified only once (at Silverstone) from the next 3 events . Mancini then DNQ'd 3 times from the next 3 entries. De Tommaso also DNQ'd the #15 for the next three races . Not a good year for the #15! Last edited by E.B; 8 Apr 2011 at 00:59. Reason: added entry list and result details. |
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8 Apr 2011, 03:43 (Ref:2860377) | #5 | ||
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Unfortunately the Ralts got worse by the year - even Eric Bernard no less struggled in the works car. The 86 RT20 is arguably their best F3000 car.
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8 Apr 2011, 11:01 (Ref:2860465) | #6 | ||
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Cracking info E.B
I thought you weren't much of an F3000 fan?!! Ghinzani is right about the colours of the Pavesi cars, Piero Martini's was certainly a distinctive orange hue and Sala's a sort of mid blue. Piero had the same colours on his RT21 and '87 teammate Barilla's was yellow. The Ralt did indeed go just as well as a privately run car as the works cars did even allowing for the engine differences, certainly at times in '86 and sometimes in '87. E.B is probably right that chassis 486 was likely a Pavesi car, certainly the first 2 or maybe even 3 would have been works cars, presumably 2 plus a spare or 3 and 4 or 5 would've been the first customer chassis, Pavesi being the main one. Unfortunately the car was indeed awful in 1988 at a time when it really needed to be strong with the arrival of Reynard who re-set the bar for chassis in the fomula by stunning everyone with a dominant win first time out. Ralt had so many different drivers in the dark blue cars in '88 just to try and maes sense of it. IIRC, someone went pretty well in one of them later in the year with some experimental bits that has been bolted on, was it Pel or Spence or someone like that? Also I had forgotten Barbazza was at Silverstone for the 1987 opener in a Ralt having returned from his Indy Lights suceeses. I thought he ran a Genoa March but that was much later on that year.. He did go on to be a bloody good driver, particularly in the Crypton Leyton House in 1990 which was a pain to work properly, and didn't disgrace himself in F1. A driver with bags more promise than he ever got to realise in signel-seaters unfortuately. |
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8 Apr 2011, 13:35 (Ref:2860528) | #7 | |||
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Now with internet and easy info I have been catching up on what I missed out on so it has more or less become a recent interest. (IIRC on your recommendation..) Just please dont mention Formula Holden or F4000 whatever they call it now. That was close as I ever got to F3000 in real life. |
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8 Apr 2011, 13:47 (Ref:2860538) | #8 | |||
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Which, expanding on your theory with 3 for the works '4' would likely be the first car delivered to Pavesi. Just checked and both of the 86 Pavesi RT20's had a race debut on the same day.... at the 1986 BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone on April 13th, with Luis Pérez-Sala in #40 and Pierluigi Martiniin #41. Just a thought., Last edited by E.B; 8 Apr 2011 at 14:03. |
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8 Apr 2011, 18:17 (Ref:2860612) | #9 | ||
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Nah Piero raced an RB20 from 85 in the first round I am sure. Possibly the round after too.
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Andretti, Mario: Auto racing legend owns the rights to an unspecified Spinal Tap song, which he purchased when former manager Ian Faith secretly sold the band’s catalog |
8 Apr 2011, 18:19 (Ref:2860614) | #10 | ||
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Actually if there were 3 works cars then the 4th would have been Salas.
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Andretti, Mario: Auto racing legend owns the rights to an unspecified Spinal Tap song, which he purchased when former manager Ian Faith secretly sold the band’s catalog |
9 Apr 2011, 06:02 (Ref:2860763) | #11 | |||
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His first ever F3000 Euro race was (according to the records) as mentioned, in the Pavesi #41 Ralt RT20 at the Silverstone International Trophy in April 1986. Re the RT/RB 20, in 1985 only the 2 works entries (#1 & #2) ever appeared on the official results for the year. In fact the following are the results of every RB/RT 20 that appeared in the 1985 Championship / Race results. 1) March 24, 1985 37th BRDC International Trophy Silverstone FIA Formula 3000 race Fin Grid Driver # Owner Car Laps Status Laps 1 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 2 5 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 2) April 8, 1985 Jochen Rindt Trophy Thruxton Circuit FIA Formula 3000 race 2 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 17 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 47 not classified 3) April 21, 1985 Grande Premio de Portugal Support Autódromo do Estoril FIA Formula 3000 1 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 12 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 40 not classified 4) May 12, 1985 38o Gran Premio di Roma Autodromo Vallelunga, FIA Formula 3000 2 3 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 14 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 36 accident 5) May 27, 1985 Grand Prix de Pau Circuit de Pau, Pau, France FIA Formula 3000 9 5 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 9 suspension 11 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 2 accident 6)June 2, 1985 1e Grand Prix F3000 de Belgique Circuit National de Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium FIA Formula 3000 1 3 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 7 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 25 engine 7) June 30, 1985 1e Grand Prix F3000 de Dijon Circuit de Dijon-Prenois, Dijon, France FIA Formula 3000 2 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 3 1 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 8) July 28, 1985 23o Gran Premio dell Mediterraneo Autodromo di Pergusa, Sicilia, Italy FIA Formula 3000 1 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 11 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 17 overheating 9) August 17, 1985 Grosser Preis F3000 von Österreich Österreichring, Spielberg, Austria FIA Formula 3000 2 6 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 9 5 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 10) August 24, 1985 1e Grote Prijs F3000 van Nederland Circuit Park Zandvoort, Zandvoort, Netherlands FIA Formula 3000 2 6 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 4 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 11) September 22, 1985 Donington Park, Castle Donington FIA Formula 3000 13 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 20 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 0 accident |
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9 Apr 2011, 06:53 (Ref:2860767) | #12 | |||
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For sure, the 88 cars struggled in comparison to the Reynards. Ron seemed to be at his best when he could start out with something about right and then work on the details through testing and racing. Of course, with a Carbon tub he wasn't able to make big changes to suspension pickups etc and the carbon cars just didn't seem to quite have that "it". |
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9 Apr 2011, 10:15 (Ref:2860819) | #13 | ||
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Ron was always, it seemed, more conservative than other designers, even back in his F1 days designing the Brabhams. I think Brabham were the last team to go to a full monocoque, and even then, when they did with the BT33, it was near on 10 years after Chapman introduced the concept to F1. Tauranac always said that a good tube chassis was as stiff as a monocoque and done properly was lighter.
Again with carbon fibre, Brabham, (by then Gordon Murray run rather than Tauranac) were the last to go the full carbon-fibre tub (IIRC the 1985 BT55 was the first full C-F Brabham tub). Not relevant to Ralt of course. However, returning focus to Ralt, they were also a late convert to C-F for the tubs, partially as a result of ease of repair of aluminium tubs over C-F varieties. (Remember Ralt's core business was building of customer cars, so ease of maintenance, repair costs and other customer team related influences were major design considerations.) F1 was into C-F tubs back in 1981, and by 1985 even Brabham were using them. It was the chassis / tub material of choice for most top open wheeler categories well before Tauranac converted. The first Ralt full C-F tub was in fact the RT22 car for 1988. (It was ironically also the last Ralt fully designed by Ron as the boss at Ralt, as he sold the business to March in 1998. The RT23 was the initial March built Ralt after the take over, although the RT23 was clearly still partially inspired by Ron. I think Ron was still retained for a while in some sort of consultancy or employment, but as far as design went March had the services of a bloke called Adrian Newey back then. Last edited by E.B; 9 Apr 2011 at 10:30. |
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30 Apr 2012, 09:45 (Ref:3067341) | #15 | ||
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According to the Black Books:
RT20-4-86 Luciano Pavesi Racing 1986 Driven by Luis Sala 1st place in Pergusa 1st place in Birmingham 1987 Paolo Barilla drove RT20 86-4 at Pau, Pergusa, Jarama Presumably the same car with the chassis number recorded differently. 1988 Fabio Mancini drove RT20 86-4 at Brands Hatch & Birmingham Wladimiro de Tomaso at Le Mans & Zolder |
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22 Dec 2012, 17:35 (Ref:3181164) | #16 | |
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Ralt RT20 Chassis Update
Just reading an old Autosport (June 26 1986) with a Track Test by Tiff Needell. He confirms the Following Ralt RT20-1 Nakajima, Thackwell at Pau, Weaver at Spa Ralt RT20-2 Nielson, Ralt RT20-3 Spare, Would need to Check Race Reports to see if this was used. Ralt RT20-4 Luis Sala Ralt RT20-5 Weidler Ralt RT20-6 Heger Ralt RT20-7 Martini |
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17 Apr 2013, 01:04 (Ref:3235571) | #17 | |
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RT20
Hi, we are currently restoring an RT20 here in Melbourne that is a Formula Holden. The Australian log book and original records from Graham Watson (Ralt Australia) show the car's chassis number as 862. There is no ID plate or any stampings on the tub to confirm this. I contacted Ralt in UK attempting to find out which F3000 it was and gave them the 862 number, Ralt came back saying that 862 is a RT33 F3 car so dead end there.
Some old paperwork that we located indicate that it may be the Pier Luigi Martini - Pavesi Racing RT20. Could the correct number be 286 ??? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Rohan |
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17 Apr 2013, 21:56 (Ref:3235963) | #18 | ||
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Didn't Rohan Onslow pedal an ex Pavesi RT20 back in the day?
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24 Apr 2013, 00:47 (Ref:3238662) | #19 | |
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Yes Rohan Oslow did run an RT20 in 1989 Australian Drivers' Championship, it was a Pavesi car that was driven by Barilla in 1987 F3000 championship.
Drew Price then ran the car in 1990 A.D.C This is not the car we are restoring. |
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24 Apr 2013, 01:41 (Ref:3238672) | #20 | |
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Whats some of the history that Graham provided? might help to rattle some old brain cells.
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24 Apr 2013, 02:50 (Ref:3238686) | #21 | |
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Sadly Graham passed away in 2009, I have limited documentation from when it was originally brought to Australia in 1989. It doesn't really tell where the car came from other than the chassis number is 862, which appears to be incorrect in the sense that RALT UK see the number 862 belonging to an RT33 F3 car.
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24 Apr 2013, 03:10 (Ref:3238690) | #22 | |
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Do you have any history in Oz? when/who raced it? There were three in 89, Onslow, Crompton (both Pavesi cars) and Roger Martin which from memory ran with Thalgo colours at one stage.
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24 Apr 2013, 06:56 (Ref:3238743) | #23 | |
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It's the car that Roger Martin drove at AGP in 1989 and then ran the full series in 1990.
In 1991 it only did a couple of rounds driven by Brian Sampson. In 1992 it was run by the Richmond Tafe College and driven by Ron Barnacle. Never in Thalgo colours and it has not run since. The car is still owned by the original owner who had it brought to Australia by Graham Watson in 1989. I am able to fully trace all the history in Australia as a Formula Holden/Brabham it's just the European part of the puzzle that I'm wanting to establish for the owner. Hopefully it will be running later this year in historic racing in its Formula Holden guise. |
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29 Apr 2013, 04:03 (Ref:3240403) | #24 | ||
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Quote:
"It's a Formula 3000 chassis - a 1986 model Ralt RT-20 ex-works car. Ron Tauranac and his boys from Weybridge built the car as a spare for Satoru Nakajima. It was used on only three occasions, and sat around gathering dust for the majority of the season." he goes on to say; "In 1987 the car had a brief assignment as a hillclimb weapon" Presumably this was in Uk or Europe before coming to Australia. So Crompton's car is not a Pavesi car. |
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2 Feb 2021, 15:08 (Ref:4033045) | #25 | |||
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EB sadly that's not correct what you are saying about Piero. I'm absolutely sure he raced a RB20 for the first four rounds of 86 as his RT wasn't ready, which arguably cost him the title.
To confirm I've asked Pavesi mechanic Massimo Pollini here.on the F3000 group, although he's said it elsewhere previously. https://m.facebook.com/groups/fthreethousand/permalink/3301796619885831/ Quote:
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