Sergio Perez - Can he still hack it?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Guthrie

He needs to have two great performances in the last couple of races in order to retain his Red Bull seat.

I really don’t think so. They’d have massive problems with the Lat-Am sponsors they’ve signed up to start with.

[v8supes]

Thing that i find somewhat interesting is how Perez seems to escape much of the usual scrutiny over his seat from the media.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Guthrie

He needs to have two great performances in the last couple of races in order to retain his Red Bull seat. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a surprise if we see him get replaced by Ricciardo or maybe some other driver.

Heavily discussed everywhere in the media, any and all social media platforms including here in this thread. No doubt he and the team wants him to preform well in the last few race, but he is likely not "racing for his seat". As mentioned by others, it seems like he will be driving for RBR in 2024. Potential for him to lose to Lewis in the championship has been greatly reduced after last race.

Originally Posted by v8supes

Thing that i find somewhat interesting is how Perez seems to escape much of the usual scrutiny over his seat from the media.

Not sure I understand what you are saying? He gets a ton of scrutiny and speculation by the media. So he doesn't "escape" that. But at the same time, while the media can put lots of eyes on someone, stir the pot and drive a narrative, they don't control the contracts.

Richard

[morninggents]

I don't understand the criticism for Perez on here. I don't remember Bottas in the Lewis years or Schumacher's various teammates in his dominant period receiving such criticism. We know the RedBull is the dominant car but we have to acknowledge the raw talent of three amongst the finest drivers in F1 history before heaping criticism on their teammates.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I don't understand the criticism for Perez on here. I don't remember Bottas in the Lewis years or Schumacher's various teammates in his dominant period receiving such criticism. We know the RedBull is the dominant car but we have to acknowledge the raw talent of three amongst the finest drivers in F1 history before heaping criticism on their teammates.

True, but I don't recall Barrichello or Bottas making as many clumsy mistakes or being as far off Schumacher and Hamilton as Perez has been to Verstappen this year.

The thing with Rubens and Valterri in particular, when Lewis and Michael had off days, or a DNF, they were there to take the win. Max has only had one of them this year granted. There were many, many Ferrari and Mercedes 1-2 finishes, whereas these this year have been few and far between for RB.

Despite this, he's doing just enough for P2 in the championship still.

I also think the Daniel Ricciardo back to RB romanticism plays a part in the scrutiny Checo receives.

Ultimately though, I think it is "Well, Gasly and Albon were just as far off Max if not even slightly closer and they barely got a chance, what's different with Perez?"

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Skam85

True, but I don't recall Barrichello or Bottas making as many clumsy mistakes or being as far off Schumacher and Hamilton as Perez has been to Verstappen this year.

The thing with Rubens and Valterri in particular, when Lewis and Michael had off days, or a DNF, they were there to take the win. Max has only had one of them this year granted. There were many, many Ferrari and Mercedes 1-2 finishes, whereas these this year have been few and far between for RB.

Despite this, he's doing just enough for P2 in the championship still.

I also think the Daniel Ricciardo back to RB romanticism plays a part in the scrutiny Checo receives.

Ultimately though, I think it is "Well, Gasly and Albon were just as far off Max if not even slightly closer and they barely got a chance, what's different with Perez?"

It wasn't that way in past two years and after a couple of wins earlier this year media started talking him up as a WDC contender.

At the same time there was the Jos the Boss snub after a win and then everything took on the nature of a highly toxic acidic nasty mess, much the same as some of the stuff DR went through last year.
Now DR's a media darling again.
Perez will be back next year, and that is how it should be.
Once Danny Ric was away from McLaren he had the time to regroup and get away from the garbage, and I think someone else will become the target next year.

It's just the nature of F1 and the incessant need to create topics of controversy for the sake of interest.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

True, but I don't recall Barrichello or Bottas making as many clumsy mistakes or being as far off Schumacher and Hamilton as Perez has been to Verstappen this year.

The thing with Rubens and Valterri in particular, when Lewis and Michael had off days, or a DNF, they were there to take the win. Max has only had one of them this year granted. There were many, many Ferrari and Mercedes 1-2 finishes, whereas these this year have been few and far between for RB.

Despite this, he's doing just enough for P2 in the championship still.

I also think the Daniel Ricciardo back to RB romanticism plays a part in the scrutiny Checo receives.

Ultimately though, I think it is "Well, Gasly and Albon were just as far off Max if not even slightly closer and they barely got a chance, what's different with Perez?"

Lewis won the 2018 F1 title by almost 100 points, whilst Bottas was 5th with no race wins.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Lewis won the 2018 F1 title by almost 100 points, whilst Bottas was 5th with no race wins.

It's funny how certain things take hold in minds, and aren't compared to other similar situations.

Perez has arguably been destroyed by a top-of-his-game Verstappen this year in a car developed very much for Verstappen.

Russell has arguably been destroyed by a past-his-best Hamilton in a car developed very much for both of them.

The first gets enormous comment, the second virtually none in the UK - although it does get mentioned more elsewhere.

[chillibowl]

are those really similar situations tho?

in fairness, you even describe them as two very different situations. about the only thing that is similar is that you are talking about two drivers sitting in their respective team's 2nd seat.

but even then, surely it is more than understandable why people care much more about the goings on in the 1st place team than what goes on with distantly 2nd place team no?

[v8supes]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Heavily discussed everywhere in the media, any and all social media platforms including here in this thread. No doubt he and the team wants him to preform well in the last few race, but he is likely not "racing for his seat". As mentioned by others, it seems like he will be driving for RBR in 2024. Potential for him to lose to Lewis in the championship has been greatly reduced after last race.


Not sure I understand what you are saying? He gets a ton of scrutiny and speculation by the media. So he doesn't "escape" that. But at the same time, while the media can put lots of eyes on someone, stir the pot and drive a narrative, they don't control the contracts.

Richard

My point being though that Perez has had an atrocious season for the most part given what Verstappen has been able to do with the same car. 10 times this season Perez has qualified lower than 8th. 8th for gods sake, in the car thats won all but 1 race... 10 times hes finished off the podium...Its not acceptable

When any other driver gets replaced there is always weeks of endless talk about whos going to replace them but this doesn't seem to happen with Perez during the Sky Sports broadcasts. Social media doesn't seem to put all that much pressure on Perez for his poor performances compared to people like Russell when he has a poor race.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by v8supes

When any other driver gets replaced there is always weeks of endless talk about whos going to replace them but this doesn't seem to happen with Perez during the Sky Sports broadcasts.

The way you phrase that makes it hard to understand. When you say "when any other driver gets replaced", I take that as meaning... "exit from team confirmed". So yes, lots of speculation as to who is the replacement "in that scenario". But that is not what is happening. It is just speculation. Just like speculation that Alonso will retire, that Yuki will be dropped from AT, that AM will be sold and Lance will be gone, that... on and on. Perez being replaced was a juicy story and was significantly driven by Perez's own multi-race slump and then fueled by Marko's weird method of "driver motivation" (or whatever it is he does when he opens mouth and inserts foot).

I don't watch Sky so I can't comment on what they say. I do think that most broadcasters who "at the race" reporting probably don't venture too deep into "speculation". I am not saying they don't, but the level of speculation elsewhere (i.e. social media) is orders of magnitude greater. So yeah, Sky may not be on the "Perez is leaving" hype train during broadcasts.

Originally Posted by v8supes

Social media doesn't seem to put all that much pressure on Perez for his poor performances compared to people like Russell when he has a poor race.

IMHO... I don't know what world you live in. I honestly can't really remember much said about Russell recently with respect to "poor performance". What I do remember happening is lots of talk about Russell saying dumb things like "I was forecast a podium" or other on track antics. Russell can be a meme machine all on his own but I don't think it is about his relative performance to Lewis. Perez has recently absolutely been roasted in the both the mainstream press and on social media. How you can say that hasn't happened? I mean it was nearly all anyone talked about for awhile.

Me saying Perez is extremely likely to be in the car in 2024 is not because I support him. I mean I have nothing against him. Frankly I would rather see someone new in the car. But rather, because as everyone will point out, while not close to Max (who is) with respect to points, he will bring a RBR 1-2 in the championship. Not to mention he has a contract next year. Of course RBR could buy him out, but for what purposes? A new driver may not change the situation much (you can only be 2nd, not 1.5 in the championship). Now... of course next year the 2024 RBR car could not as far ahead as the others and this may result in Perez dropping back beyond 2nd in the WDC. But that is also speculation. With that being said, I might be surprised if somehow Perez is dropped before next season, but never say never.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by v8supes

My point being though that Perez has had an atrocious season for the most part given what Verstappen has been able to do with the same car. 10 times this season Perez has qualified lower than 8th. 8th for gods sake, in the car thats won all but 1 race... 10 times hes finished off the podium...Its not acceptable

When any other driver gets replaced there is always weeks of endless talk about whos going to replace them but this doesn't seem to happen with Perez during the Sky Sports broadcasts. Social media doesn't seem to put all that much pressure on Perez for his poor performances compared to people like Russell when he has a poor race.

Interesting.
Perez has been destroyed by Max?
In a way, he has been outscored by Max, yes. But so has every other driver in the field.
Statistically, Perez has actually done very well.
So far we have had 21 of 22 races. With 25 points for a win and 1 point for fastest lap a maximum of 26 points for each GP.
That is a total of 546 points for the 21 races.
Max has a total of 549 points. This is simply because of the six sprint races where he has added to his total. The full possible total is another 48 points so Max has scored 549 out of a possible 594 points or 92.24% of all possible points. No one has ever been this dominant statistically in F1.

Max has won four of these sprint races. Piastri won one and the other was won by.... Perez!
Perez has scored 273 points in total, which is actually exactly half of the 546 possible points on offer across the 21 GP races. The Perez total is exactly the same as the entire score for Aston Martin, who lie 5th in points at present.
His total from the 594 points on offer is 45.95%, which is also higher than any other driver in the field other than Max, including former champions Alonso and Hamilton, and also Norris, Sainz, Leclerc, Russell.


One thing we should remember is that if Perez scored more points, then the scores of the other elite drivers in the field, those mentioned above, would all be lower than they already are, meaning Perez' points in comparison, would be correspondingly higher on a percentage basis.

His average points per event is 13 which is higher than a fourth place.
Had all his points been consistently across all the 21 GP's he would have scored 14 fourths and 7 thirds, making a total of 273.
This is hardly the work of a driver who is NOT supporting his teammate in the team's quest for a world title, and would have outscored every other driver in the field other than Max.
If Max has been so dominant in wins, scoring 18 of the 21 who scored the other two wins? Sainz in Singapore, and the other two wins? Perez.

Considering max has been so dominant it would be unrealistic to expect Perez to take away too many wins from Max who is the Number One driver so if we counted the realistic number of points on offer for the sprints and the full GP distance, how many points do 21 seconds and second in the six sprints add up to? Well.
21x18 is 378 and 7x6is 42 so a total of 420.
Against this total the Perez' score is equal to exactly 65% of all the possible points that could be gained by finishing second in every GP and in every sprint race. For a driver who had never won a race until the last GP of 2020, never won a championship, and is employed in a supporting role, this has been a very good season.
Again, this percentage is higher than any other driver in the field over this season.
What is also interesting is that the cost of points scored by Perez against the cost of Max's points is entirely favorable. Perez brings Latin American sponsors to the team and therefore some of his own cost is offset by the sponsorship.
But if we assume his salary in cost to the team is about $10 million it means that each point corresponds to about $36360 a point in cost to the team.
If Max is on $40 each of his points with one round to go, is at a cost of 72,859.70 a point.
Obviously other high paid drivers are costing their teams much more.
Lance Stroll is said be getting $10 million but his 73 points are coming at a cost of $136986 a point.
Sergio Perez is actually very good value for money to RBR.
Maybe he deserves a pay raise for 2024....

So if RBR continue to employ Perez for 2024, there are very good reasons for doing so, and many of his critics are just PITW.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Interesting.
Perez has been destroyed by Max?
In a way, he has been outscored by Max, yes. But so has every other driver in the field.
Statistically, Perez has actually done very well.
So far we have had 21 of 22 races. With 25 points for a win and 1 point for fastest lap a maximum of 26 points for each GP.
That is a total of 546 points for the 21 races.
Max has a total of 549 points. This is simply because of the six sprint races where he has added to his total. The full possible total is another 48 points so Max has scored 549 out of a possible 594 points or 92.24% of all possible points. No one has ever been this dominant statistically in F1.

Max has won four of these sprint races. Piastri won one and the other was won by.... Perez!
Perez has scored 273 points in total, which is actually exactly half of the 546 possible points on offer across the 21 GP races. The Perez total is exactly the same as the entire score for Aston Martin, who lie 5th in points at present.
His total from the 594 points on offer is 45.95%, which is also higher than any other driver in the field other than Max, including former champions Alonso and Hamilton, and also Norris, Sainz, Leclerc, Russell.


One thing we should remember is that if Perez scored more points, then the scores of the other elite drivers in the field, those mentioned above, would all be lower than they already are, meaning Perez' points in comparison, would be correspondingly higher on a percentage basis.

His average points per event is 13 which is higher than a fourth place.
Had all his points been consistently across all the 21 GP's he would have scored 14 fourths and 7 thirds, making a total of 273.
This is hardly the work of a driver who is NOT supporting his teammate in the team's quest for a world title, and would have outscored every other driver in the field other than Max.
If Max has been so dominant in wins, scoring 18 of the 21 who scored the other two wins? Sainz in Singapore, and the other two wins? Perez.

Considering max has been so dominant it would be unrealistic to expect Perez to take away too many wins from Max who is the Number One driver so if we counted the realistic number of points on offer for the sprints and the full GP distance, how many points do 21 seconds and second in the six sprints add up to? Well.
21x18 is 378 and 7x6is 42 so a total of 420.
Against this total the Perez' score is equal to exactly 65% of all the possible points that could be gained by finishing second in every GP and in every sprint race. For a driver who had never won a race until the last GP of 2020, never won a championship, and is employed in a supporting role, this has been a very good season.
Again, this percentage is higher than any other driver in the field over this season.
What is also interesting is that the cost of points scored by Perez against the cost of Max's points is entirely favorable. Perez brings Latin American sponsors to the team and therefore some of his own cost is offset by the sponsorship.
But if we assume his salary in cost to the team is about $10 million it means that each point corresponds to about $36360 a point in cost to the team.
If Max is on $40 each of his points with one round to go, is at a cost of 72,859.70 a point.
Obviously other high paid drivers are costing their teams much more.
Lance Stroll is said be getting $10 million but his 73 points are coming at a cost of $136986 a point.
Sergio Perez is actually very good value for money to RBR.
Maybe he deserves a pay raise for 2024....

So if RBR continue to employ Perez for 2024, there are very good reasons for doing so, and many of his critics are just PITW.

Appreciate the efforts with the number crunching, but Checo has been trounced by Max this year, and in any post-season rankings (outside of the championship standings) I don't think there will be many that rank him inside the top 10 best performed drivers of the season.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Statistically, Perez has actually done very well.

A lot of details in that post. Two comments. First, I think you don't factor in the dominance of the car. I think the question is Max vs Perez vs. Perez vs. everyone else. Granted, I agree in the problem that Max is a rough teammate to have. Second, you talk about Perez taking wins from Max. While that would be fantastic, I think the problem is not finishing higher on average.

My general (and simplistic) view on all of this.

2023 Car: Has been dominant all season (but others are closing in as RBR was likely heavily slowing down or even stopping development on the 2023 car toward the end of the season.

Max: He is an exceptional talent. And part of that is that he is extremely consistent. Usually always on top of his game. He has few weaknesses.

Perez: He is good, but not in the same class as Max (few if any are). What really hurts Perez is that he can be inconsistent. Good for a few races, bad for a few races.

Add it all up. Everything is in Max's favor. Top of his game in a dominant car. Perez is hampered by his consistency issue which is probably aggravated by the mental/emotional challenges of having to be constantly compared to Max. All of this results in an average finishing position (and points haul) that is much lower than the car is capable of doing.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Interesting.
Perez has been destroyed by Max?
In a way, he has been outscored by Max, yes. But so has every other driver in the field.
Statistically, Perez has actually done very well.
So far we have had 21 of 22 races. With 25 points for a win and 1 point for fastest lap a maximum of 26 points for each GP.
That is a total of 546 points for the 21 races.
Max has a total of 549 points. This is simply because of the six sprint races where he has added to his total. The full possible total is another 48 points so Max has scored 549 out of a possible 594 points or 92.24% of all possible points. No one has ever been this dominant statistically in F1.

Max has won four of these sprint races. Piastri won one and the other was won by.... Perez!
Perez has scored 273 points in total, which is actually exactly half of the 546 possible points on offer across the 21 GP races. The Perez total is exactly the same as the entire score for Aston Martin, who lie 5th in points at present.
His total from the 594 points on offer is 45.95%, which is also higher than any other driver in the field other than Max, including former champions Alonso and Hamilton, and also Norris, Sainz, Leclerc, Russell.


One thing we should remember is that if Perez scored more points, then the scores of the other elite drivers in the field, those mentioned above, would all be lower than they already are, meaning Perez' points in comparison, would be correspondingly higher on a percentage basis.

His average points per event is 13 which is higher than a fourth place.
Had all his points been consistently across all the 21 GP's he would have scored 14 fourths and 7 thirds, making a total of 273.
This is hardly the work of a driver who is NOT supporting his teammate in the team's quest for a world title, and would have outscored every other driver in the field other than Max.
If Max has been so dominant in wins, scoring 18 of the 21 who scored the other two wins? Sainz in Singapore, and the other two wins? Perez.

Considering max has been so dominant it would be unrealistic to expect Perez to take away too many wins from Max who is the Number One driver so if we counted the realistic number of points on offer for the sprints and the full GP distance, how many points do 21 seconds and second in the six sprints add up to? Well.
21x18 is 378 and 7x6is 42 so a total of 420.
Against this total the Perez' score is equal to exactly 65% of all the possible points that could be gained by finishing second in every GP and in every sprint race. For a driver who had never won a race until the last GP of 2020, never won a championship, and is employed in a supporting role, this has been a very good season.
Again, this percentage is higher than any other driver in the field over this season.
What is also interesting is that the cost of points scored by Perez against the cost of Max's points is entirely favorable. Perez brings Latin American sponsors to the team and therefore some of his own cost is offset by the sponsorship.
But if we assume his salary in cost to the team is about $10 million it means that each point corresponds to about $36360 a point in cost to the team.
If Max is on $40 each of his points with one round to go, is at a cost of 72,859.70 a point.
Obviously other high paid drivers are costing their teams much more.
Lance Stroll is said be getting $10 million but his 73 points are coming at a cost of $136986 a point.
Sergio Perez is actually very good value for money to RBR.
Maybe he deserves a pay raise for 2024....

So if RBR continue to employ Perez for 2024, there are very good reasons for doing so, and many of his critics are just PITW.

Great post but facts are unlikely in my experience to alter the narratives of those who have already decided he isn't good enough.

The simple facts are:

He has finished P2 for Red Bull.

Red Bull have had their first ever P1 and P2 in the Championship.

He helped win the WCC for Red Bull.

His presence has brought in significant sponsor and partner revenues for Red Bull.

His performance has attracted considerable media comment for Red Bull.

If we think that the famously effective Red Bull PR machine is disappointed in any of this we would be rightly labelled as being very naive!

[BTCC frog]

I think Sergio Perez's season has been extremely disappointing. He may have held onto second in the championship but I can't think of a less convincing season performance rewarded with this. He is only just ahead of Lewis Hamilton despite Hamilton having had more bad luck (Austin disqualification: Perez has had no races like this), and a car that has probably been close to 4th best on average (Aston Martin was 2nd for half the season, McLaren 2nd for half the season, and Ferrari and Mercedes have usually been 3rd and 4th, with Ferrari generally just ahead - putting Mercedes as averaging 4th). Red Bull, meanwhile have had the best car at every round bar Singapore, and often by a dominant margin. And Hamilton hasn't exactly been at his best this season, often being outperformed by George Russell and taking himself out in Qatar. This lack of consistent best non-Red Bull has caused the rest to split their points and so Perez doesn't need to score as well to hold onto second.

As the Red Bull has been the best car, you would expect Perez to finish second every time. But he has finished in the top two on only six occasions. If we look at his season overall:

Bahrain - finished 2nd. Job done.
Saudi Arabia - fortunate victory, but still would have taken the expected 2nd place and held off Verstappen well.
Australia - took only fifth due to his own mistake in qualifying, and gained positions in the chaos at the end.
Azerbaijan - beat Verstappen pretty much on merit. His best drive of 2023.
Miami - should have won but allowed Verstappen to come through and beat him. Still, finished 2nd so did his job.

Based on these five races of the season, Perez had done a Bottas-esque job and was looking like the perfect second driver. But then his season totally fell apart.

Monaco - crashed in qualifying; his mistake. Then drove a horrendous race with multiple crashes and no pace, and failed to score.
Spain - missed Q3 due to a mistake in qualifying, and finished fourth, behind Russell's slower Mercedes despite starting ahead of him.
Canada - again missed Q3 due to a lack of pace, and was beaten by the slower Ferraris from similar grid positions to finish sixth.
Austria - finished 3rd after missing Q3 due to track limit violations. It was a decent comeback in the race but those mistakes in qualifying cost him 2nd to a slower car.
Britain - started towards the back after another messy qualifying, when he was sent out too early but still underperformed, then fought back to sixth but had finished behind four slower cars due to his poor qualifying.
Hungary - a similar story as Perez qualified badly, had a decent race but lost out to Norris in a slower car.
Belgium - a rare clean weekend in which Perez did finish second as he should have done in the previous six races.
Netherlands - handed a golden opportunity to lead the race after a poor qualifying but was easily hunted down by Verstappen, passed by Alonso and then lost out to Gasly due to a penalty for speeding into the pitlane, which was his mistake.
Italy - like in Belgium, he did his job by passing the Ferraris and finishing second.
Singapore - the car wasn't good enough on this occasion but he still finished some way behind Verstappen and was very fortunate that his dive on Albon was just a five-second penalty.
Japan - well off Verstappen's pace, then had another extremely messy race as he crashed into Magnussen.
Qatar - slow in qualifying, many track limit violations and an underwhelming race to tenth.
Austin - a lack of pace caused him to finish fourth, rather than second, and only sixth on the road. The Red Bull wasn't as good here as at other tracks but he should have beaten the Ferraris.
Mexico - good start but a silly move on lap one that took himself out cost him big points.
Brazil - a decent race but his poor qualifying left him well behind Verstappen and Norris, and he should have beaten Alonso to third. Six points dropped again.
Las Vegas - unlucky in qualifying this time, although he still could have made Q3, and unlucky to drop to the back in the first lap incident. But the safety car undid that bad luck and put him in the lead with better tyres than Leclerc and equal tyres to Verstappen, who was a few cars behind, and he threw it away and finished third. He definitely should have held off Leclerc on the final lap.

So what I am trying to say here is that there has never been an easier opportunity to finish second in the championship. Perez's car has been 100% reliable, the equal-best in every round bar one and with no consistency in terms of the most serious challenger. And yet he has dropped so many points, as shown here, just through underperformance that he was at risk of losing that second to Lewis Hamilton in a much weaker car.

I don't think Perez is a bad driver in general, he was among the best in the midfield throughout his time at Force India and Racing Point. And his Red Bull years previously, while clearly less strong than Bottas at Mercedes, were at least good enough to be the second driver. But 2023, for whatever reason, has been an utterly horrendous season and I think Red Bull would be better off signing Daniel Ricciardo for 2024. He still wouldn't challenge Verstappen but would have finished second far more often this year. Perez currently sits 15th in my driver rankings, after 8th in 2022 and 12th in 2021. If he were to have a season like this in a year when Mercedes, Ferrari or McLaren, with two fast drivers (Piastri hasn't had the best season but he is a very promising rookie with the potential to be as good as Norris who I think is currently the 2nd best on the grid), were close to Red Bull on speed and consistently their closest challengers (enough to beat them sometimes), Perez having a season like this would cost them the constructors' title. He was good in his day, and his drive in Sakhir 2020 was one of the very best of the last decade, but I don't think he can still hack it, unfortunately.

[Aysedasi]

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, other than replacing him with Ricciardo. That boat has sailed, IMO. RBR are better off sticking with Checo. There's absolutely no evidence that Daniel would fare any better (certainly no evidence whatsoever that he would have finished second far more often than Perez).

[chillibowl]

some great well thought out posts so apologies for just cherry picking a line or two from each.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

...No one has ever been this dominant statistically in F1...

this then begs the question, would Max' season have been so statistically dominant had he had a more competitive team mate?

no disrespect to your analysis (which was great btw), but personally i dont want to compare this all time great season Max has had against Perez.

earlier in the season when Ham was taking pot shots at Max, he alluded to the fact that he has had stronger team mates compared to the intra team competition that Max has faced.

he is not wrong, but of course also it is not Max' fault that he has basically trounced all of his team mates, but as a fan its hard to argue against wanting to see the best compete against the best (and in the case of F1 that probably means also in equal machinery).

so for better or worse, Perez' performances this year, despite what the numbers may say, has left this very large window of speculation to take place in.

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

...As the Red Bull has been the best car, you would expect Perez to finish second every time. But he has finished in the top two on only six occasions...

exactly...as fans, we cant help ourselves but to ponder 'what if' scenarios.

every race where Perez is not fighting with Max for 1st only adds to that desire, and, as to your breakdown, there have not been enough of those moments to quell speculation over his seat.

again, imo, all things being equal/pound for pound, Perez is not one i would consider one of the two drivers on the grid.

however unstable it may be from a team dynamic point of view, i want to see '88 Senna v Prost all the time.

surely when one team is this dominant, then this is the standard we should be hoping for right?

Originally Posted by Richard C

...Me saying Perez is extremely likely to be in the car in 2024 is not because I support him. I mean I have nothing against him. Frankly I would rather see someone new in the car...

right on for me. nothing against Perez but i am also at the point where i would like to see the team try something else out.

of course this is totally selfish and an unreasonable thing to wish for. RB has to do what's best for RB and while i think Perez is a very sensible and conservative choice, its hardly an inspirational one imo.

and its something we've already seen for a few seasons now. next year i want to watch a different movie!

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Russell has arguably been destroyed by a past-his-best Hamilton in a car developed very much for both of them.

I woudl dispute Russell has been destroyed and that Lewis is past his best. They have been given a truck to fight a hypercar RBR.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I woudl dispute Russell has been destroyed and that Lewis is past his best. They have been given a truck to fight a hypercar RBR.

Lewis has almost 50% more points than him, and Russell has contrived to finish P8 in a championship with effectively 7 cars in it. There’s plenty of reasons why his ultimate potential is, at best, being heavily questioned.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Lewis has almost 50% more points than him, and Russell has contrived to finish P8 in a championship with effectively 7 cars in it. There’s plenty of reasons why his ultimate potential is, at best, being heavily questioned.

Does that also mean the Leclerc is being 'destroyed' by his teammate?

It's also interesting how the supposedly more knowledgeable understanding of the paddock insiders has gone from 'George is at a key point as to whether he might be considered a genuine topliner in future' to 'Russell has arguably been destroyed' in less than two months?

At the same time, we have been informed that we (the outsiders) should accept that 'Valued opinions and experience, and I don't necessarily mean just mine! [from] people who actually work in and actually understand the sport' know that Sainz is 'miles off in every way' who 'might pull one lap out of the bag' but 'Leclerc [is the] real superstar'

This is why I have a hard time accepting that 'the paddock' is less questioning of Pérez compared to Russell.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

DIt's also interesting how the supposedly more knowledgeable understanding of the paddock insiders has gone from 'George is at a key point as to whether he might be considered a genuine topliner in future' to 'Russell has arguably been destroyed' in less than two months?

Are you just ignoring the significant mistakes Russell has made in that period - like the totally unforced error in Singapore? 100% fanboy behaviour if so.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Sainz is 'miles off in every way' who 'might pull one lap out of the bag' but 'Leclerc [is the] real superstar'

Sainz has had his best season no doubt, and been impressive, but personally I am still confident as to why Leclerc is the one talked about as the real top-liner.

[Aysedasi]

Not a confidence I share. Yes, he's fast, faster than his team mate, but fragile. He makes too many mistakes, many through overdriving and I'm sure quite a bit is down to the car but Carlos generally looks more controlled and certainly far more tactically aware. I'm not saying Carlos is the 'next big thing' but I certainly don't believe Charles is... And I'm really not that fussed what the paddock thinks either. The paddock has a proven track record for making mistakes over things like this.....

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Are you just ignoring the significant mistakes Russell has made in that period - like the totally unforced error in Singapore? 100% fanboy behaviour if so.

Plenty of the greatest drivers have made unforced errors costing them wins. Ascari in Monaco 1955, Moss in Monaco 1957, Clark in Monaco 1964, Prost in Monaco 1982, Senna in Monaco 1988, Schumacher in Monaco 1996. (I’m sensing a theme here). I think George Russell has had a very decent season, on par with that of Leclerc and Sainz. He hasn’t been as good as Verstappen, Norris, Hamilton and Alonso but I would still consider him a potential champion, if not a potential all-time great.

His drive in Sakhir 2020 was particularly special and should not be forgotten. In the Williams in 2021 there were laps when you could tell from watching onboard that it was a special lap which is rare in modern F1. And in 2022 he outscored Lewis Hamilton in his first season with Mercedes. Obviously Hamilton had one of his worst seasons and more bad luck but he is still Lewis Hamilton, a seven time champion and one of the greatest there has ever been.

In 2023, Hamilton has been closer to his best and has outperformed Russell but there have been very few races when Russell has been off Hamilton’s pace at the level that Perez has been off Verstappen (Austin and Mexico the only two when he has been like Perez almost every time). There have been many races where he was genuinely clearly better than Lewis Hamilton (like Jeddah, Silverstone, Monza). He made two big mistakes in Canada in Singapore, but Hamilton also made one in Qatar. He won’t be the next Lewis Hamilton, but very few in history are on that level. Russell is still one of the top drivers of the next generation.