[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Fogelhund]

Do you really see Scott negotiating that way? If you don't run at PLM, you don't get Sebring either? MMM... ok, bye Scott.....

Who is more screwed if the WEC doesn't do either event?

[Purist]

Unless Brazil magically materializes, there can't be an FIA World Endurance Championship in 2012 without the North America rounds, period! FIA rules have a three continent minimum (frankly, it should be five or even six) for World Championship status. And I can't see the FIA cutting the ACO a break on that one.

Not to mention, plenty of teams would be ticked to be yanked around, and then told there is no WEC, at least for another year. I also can't imagine the Audi or Peugeot boardrooms being happy with no North American rounds, plus the championship status being yanked by the FIA. Plus, would the ACO withhold Le Mans itself from the championship if Sebring was off the calendar?

Honestly, the WEC is in a position where it NEEDS the credibility that Sebring and PLM bring a whole hell of a lot more than those two races need there to even be a WEC in existence. Without Sebring and PLM, I'm pretty well convinced that the WEC would be about as successful as the FIA SCC, and maybe not even as long-lived, since the LMP1 teams could just decide that the LMS makes as much sense within Europe.

[Acid09]

John Dagys who is usually well informed still predicts no PLM in the schedule.

I think Atherton is getting desperate to be honest..

[chernaudi]

Only issue with that logic is where do the ACO and the FIA think that they can stage the WEC in America, especially with Todt's and the FIA's recent interest in promoting international racing in America and seemingly trying to return sportscar racing to its roots?

The Circuit of the Americas in Austin would be a start, but isn't even completed yet and who knows if the WEC would run there. It's near a big city and such, but what time of year would they run--the FIA and FOM have pushed the date from June to November on the '12 F1 calendar.

Also, there's Sears Point/Infineon Raceway, which though a traditional circuit, isn't well suited to today's LMP and GT cars, be it the traditional or NASCAR layout.

And there's Watkins Glen. Issue there is that Watkins Glen is owned by ISC, which has Jim France as majority shareholder, and Jim's nephew Brian is CEO of NASCAR, ISC is tied to NASCAR at the hip, and we know the rest of the story. Only savior there is if the FIA can browbeat NASCAR/ISC into letting the WEC race there.

Of course, with the rumors of NASCAR/Grand Am pulling out of Montreal, the WEC can race there for the first time since 1990 if NASCAR does pull out next year.

Really, the issue with a Brazilian round is logistics, local interest, and the plans of the ACO, FIA, teams, and manufacturers. Audi, Toyota, Nissan, and Aston Martin probably (and Audi it seems for sure) would have no problem with two US/NA rounds, while Peugeot wants and south American round.

It depends on who has more pull and ultimately the planners' call on it.

[Fogelhund]

Why would Peugeot be upset about not racing in North America?

I don't buy that ISC would try and block a WEC race from one of their tracks. I believe quite the opposite, they'd love to put the boots to the ALMS.

There are other options.... Australia, Africa....

In the end it will be Sebring.... and maybe, or maybe not PLM. Atherton was certain about it, until it was pulled from the calendar this year, then put back on. He was certain we were going to have 6-7 LMP1 and 4-5 LMP2 cars this year all season....

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Purist

Honestly, the WEC is in a position where it NEEDS the credibility that Sebring and PLM bring a whole hell of a lot more than those two races need there to even be a WEC in existence. Without Sebring and PLM, I'm pretty well convinced that the WEC would be about as successful as the FIA SCC, and maybe not even as long-lived, since the LMP1 teams could just decide that the LMS makes as much sense within Europe.

I don't agree at all, the ALMS desperately needs the WEC for their two marquee events, not the other way around.

With just the regular field the PLM would be a mess, a 10hr race with just 24 cars, only three or four of which are proper prototypes? Bleh..

[JAG]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Really, the issue with a Brazilian round is logistics, local interest, and the plans of the ACO, FIA, teams, and manufacturers. Audi, Toyota, Nissan, and Aston Martin probably (and Audi it seems for sure) would have no problem with two US/NA rounds, while Peugeot wants and south American round.

It depends on who has more pull and ultimately the planners' call on it.

South America's an important market for many manufactuers, F1, Indycar, WTCC, DTM, FIA GT, WRC, IRC and the old WSC have held events in the region.

[Purist]

The WSC hasn't held an event in South America since 1972 (Buenos Aires). Indy Car, pre-split, last visited in 1971 (Rafaela).

And for a modern WEC event, who exactly will be paying for the armed guards and security for the cars, equipment, and personnel while they're in Sao Paolo?

It'll be ~40 cars for PLM. The LMPCs and GTCs aren't ideal, but they don't bother me that much, if at all really. And you could expect a few extra entries in P1 and P2. So, I don't buy those excuses. There would be more than 5 prototypes, and ~40 cars total. That's quite a nice field for any series. And I don't think the drivers in the upper classes would be saying there were just 24 cars out there. If it exists physically, it's traffic, whether you like the class or not.

As for other continents, Australia just has two serious options: Eastern Creek and Philip Island. And it was a struggle for them to pull off two rounds at Sandown in the old WSC, back in 1984 and 1988. For Africa, Kyalami is it. And if Sears Point is unsuitable for the Le Mans format, I don't see how the present Kyalami is much, if any, better.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

The WSC hasn't held an event in South America since 1972 (Buenos Aires). Indy Car, pre-split, last visited in 1971 (Rafaela).

And for a modern WEC event, who exactly will be paying for the armed guards and security for the cars, equipment, and personnel while they're in Sao Paolo?

It's difficult enough when Sao Paulo hosts the GP. The incident with Jenson Button springs to mind.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Why would Peugeot be upset about not racing in North America?

I don't buy that ISC would try and block a WEC race from one of their tracks. I believe quite the opposite, they'd love to put the boots to the ALMS.

Peugeot doesn't even sell cars in NA and haven't in 20 years and may very well never will again, while they sell tons of cars in South America. That's the rationale behind the Zhuhai rounds last year and this year--Audi and Peugeot sell tons of cars in China, and even build many of them there and even Chinese market versions unique to China.

The issue here is that most other manufacturers and the FIA and ACO seem to be pushing for two NA rounds--be it Sebring and PLM, or one of those races teamed with another NA round, and Peugeot is the current main hold out for a South American round.

As for ISC, wasn't one of the reasons for the formation of Grand Am the fact that Don Panoz wanted to drag the ACO and/or the FIA into American sportscar racing? But then again, as with may things NASCAR related, if Todt and the FIA show enough greenbacks to ISC, who's to say that they won't take the cash and run, and let the WEC have a race at the Glen?

That's the only ace in the hole that the WEC has over the ALMS as far as racing at an ISC-owned track, along with the fact that the WEC is partly sanctioned by the FIA, and even all-mighty NASCAR is subserviant to the ACCUS, which is the North American arm of the FIA, and Nick Crawl (it's president) is Todt's right hand man in the FIA, and Todt himself seems to be willing to spare no expense to boost international racing within NA boarders.

And as far as the FIA WC status and the three continents request, that's met by the current ILMC with races in NA, Europe and Asia. Even if the schedule is the same as this year for the WEC, the same requirement is met, as a round in SA is a buffer to that.

Of course, you do have to question what number of races the WEC will have in 2012 or beyond. I believe that including the LM24, that about 7-8 is a current ideal number, and certainly no more than 10 or so--the old WEC rarely had more than 7-9 rounds a year. Again, the FIA, the ACO and the teams/manufacturers will have to decide on that.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Peugeot doesn't even sell cars in NA and haven't in 20 years and may very well never will again, while they sell tons of cars in South America. That's the rationale behind the Zhuhai rounds last year and this year--Audi and Peugeot sell tons of cars in China, and even build many of them there and even Chinese market versions unique to China.

Peugeot is fairly big in Mexico. Technically, Mexico is in North America I believe. Can the ACO pull off scheduling an event at Mexico for 2012 right now? Probably not. Plus, I'm not sure if they would want to do that. However, I guess it is always a possibility for the future perhaps.

As far as who needs who more, it's a tough call. Ok, obviously the WEC brings the prototype names that everyone wants to see, but I don't know if the WEC can attract any significant number of GTE teams. Ok, the WEC can probably get some guest ALMS GT entrants even if the WEC races in North America without the ALMS, but that is an issue that has to be looked at.

I think Peugeot is in a fairly tough spot though. They probably wanted two Chinese events, but there is evidence showing that there may be a race in Japan instead. They don't want to race at Petit, but they will probably have to spend some of their own money to make a South American event successful enough to make it a successful, regular event for years to come. Money will need to be spent to promote the event I think. Obviously, they would not have to invest anything if Petit becomes a regular event. Will Peugeot pay to make their desires come true?

Anyway, Dagys seems very pessimistic about Atherton's hopeful (wishful?) thinking. Still, a championship consisting of Sebring, Spa, Le Mans, Silverstone, the Chinese grab bag, Petit and Fuji would be one heck of a championship.

[Speed-King]

As for ISC, wasn't one of the reasons for the formation of Grand Am the fact that Don Panoz wanted to drag the ACO and/or the FIA into American sportscar racing? But then again, as with may things NASCAR related, if Todt and the FIA show enough greenbacks to ISC, who's to say that they won't take the cash and run, and let the WEC have a race at the Glen?

There's a huge difference between a full series and just one race per year. I supposse, GA would even be okay with an ALMS in the style of the early LMS-years, i.e. four 1000k races per year.

[gregtummer]

Is there any talk of one of the 2 North American races being at Austin in the future?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Is there any talk of one of the 2 North American races being at Austin in the future?

I suspect there is. The FIA seems to like to steer races to certain tracks, but who knows.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Is there any talk of one of the 2 North American races being at Austin in the future?

There is no guarantee of two North American events. North and/or South America will have 2 events in 2012. The ACO's preferred option it seems is to have one in South America, but who knows if that will actually happen.

As far as Austin goes, it is possible that it has been considered and certainly fans have speculated about it, but I don't know if the ACO has ever seriously considered it. Montreal has also been thrown around in speculative fashion, but really the only race that has any solid rumors for inclusion in 2012 is Sebring.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by AGD

As far as Austin goes, it is possible that it has been considered and certainly fans have speculated about it, but I don't know if the ACO has ever seriously considered it. Montreal has also been thrown around in speculative fashion, but really the only race that has any solid rumors for inclusion in 2012 is Sebring.

Regarding Austin, I don't know how much of this is true:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns23487.html

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by AGD

Peugeot is fairly big in Mexico. Technically, Mexico is in North America I believe. Can the ACO pull off scheduling an event at Mexico for 2012 right now? Probably not. Plus, I'm not sure if they would want to do that. However, I guess it is always a possibility for the future perhaps.

So are Nissan and Toyota, I imagine they'd also approve of a mexican round if they join the WEC, IIRC the old WSC raced in Mexico in the early 90's but I don't know if the Mexico City track is fit for modern prototypes.

I'd still prefer to have PLM in the calendar though.

[courageous]

All this talk of a Brazilian round, I'm supprised nobody has mentioned the mess that happened when LMS took over the Milles Milhaus (sp) in Brazil - virtually killing the event.

[broadrun96]

All of the alternatives make moving PLM later if Fuiji is run the same weekend PLM has been seem to be the best idea for 2012. Mexico City looked a little rough when Nationwide was there last, 3-4 years ago but betting if graded high enough could be improved quickly I'm sure. The important piece is what do teams feel could be supported and attended best, PLM seems to be acknowledged as a well attended event without the security concerns of Brazil events. And yes I'm kinda biased with Road Atlanta being just up the road from me. With Austin opening, or planned to open in 2012, and the history of Sebring I personally expect PLM to make possibly a couple appearances before being traded out for Austin in the future, if the US keeps 2 rounds.

[Deleted]

If the proposed Fuji date stays at the last weekend of september, one would assume that the Zhuhai/China round would be held shortly after (or before). Anything else would be foolish from logistics point of view

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm NOT holding my breath on a Brazilian round materializing, and without LMS/ALMS support/entries, they can't expect a great turnout for a race down there. Even if they do get a round, you can bet they will be calling in back-up from entries in the Itaipava GT Brasil series to fill out the field with GT3s.

Yes indeed. And have in mind that GT Brasil races are 50min long. Doing 6 hours would be very expensive for most of them. The only way around is to call Brazilian stars from Stock Car Brasil and international sports car racing.

[Nick6]

Why is a Zhuhai round even needed?

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Nick6

Why is a Zhuhai round even needed?

The manufacturers 'need' it for marketing purposes in the Chinese market.

This of course completely ignores the fact that noone in China is interested in motorsport.

[Purist]

Or the issue that "nobody" in China can afford Western ticket prices for a motor race.

[JAG]

The Chinese market is too big to ignore and rapidly expanding, as are other future WEC possibilities, India, Russia and the aformentioned South America.

You only need look at F1 to see how traditional events have had to up their game to compete, Silverstone and Spa have both been threatened, France doesn't even have a round.