Pre 1966 Appendix K issues

[zefarelly]

here goes, a thread to discuss App K and general homologation issues for pre 66 saloons, GTs and sports racers/prototypes

I guess this won't be specifically applicable to everyone but its certainly the most talked about 'period'

I would equally welcome a later period discussion as I fancy a MK2 Cortina race car as well, if not, a MK1 Capri !

[zefarelly]

In addition, I think we might be a little careful with Homologation papers etc, if it turns into an illegal republication of every set of papers in the world we might get tentenths into trouble.

theres private email for that!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

In addition, I think we might be a little careful with Homologation papers etc, if it turns into an illegal republication of every set of papers in the world we might get tentenths into trouble.

theres private email for that!

I don't think there is or should be an issue with this. They belonged in the first instance to the companies who paid for them. The various homologation papers have been in the public domain for years, must be out of copyright and are only required to be official copies in the context of their use with HTP.They were , probably still are , being offered for sale on E Bay recently.

[zefarelly]

really, I have a collection of saloons acquired from various sources, digitally, I've only ever forked out for my car ones though.

so we're comfortable with sharing of specific data then, for example the simplest wheel base, track width, weight etc info for the most common car.

Maybe scrutineering could be done on a points system . . . get a score every time you get a tick in the box rather than a cross for/against compliance. if you scored points for not cheating as well as race results that might put the cat amongst the pigeons

there could be a 'constructors championship' then as well !!!

[Brendan Roberts]

So where do I find the Homologation details for Lotus Elite (series 1 and series 2) and for Alfa GTA? I have a sheet for one of the Elites (not sure if its series 1 or 2) which lists the suspension, steering and capacities/dimensions. In capacities it records 'fuel tanks (the s at the end of tanks is typed in later) 47.25 litres rear.....32.75 o/s'. I am aware from period photos that many Elites ran with an off side front wing tank which I assume is as per the reference on the homologation sheet that I have. I am not aware of any Elite running today that has an o/s wing tank, and I reckon an Elite uses about 35 litres per hour on track. So all Elites running in 2 hr races must have about 70 litres in the rear tank. Is it OK for the overall capacity to be 80 litres as per the homologation papers but in one rear tank or must it be in one rear and one o/side tank. If its two I better get some mods done before mine is painted!

[Mark Griffiths]

I'd love to see some homologation papers for the MG1100 as the ones on file at the MSA are a summary of three differing originals so I'd love to see what, if any, tricks we are missing.

[zefarelly]

Mark

general opinion would no doubt be pick the best bits ! Saun at CCK has an MG as well, he may have better papers, otherwise Dallas Smith is probably one of very few who would remember from the day!

otherwise theres always the a frame coil over, 1460 crossflow on webers sticking out the bonnet, discs all round route

Brendan, nice of you to start on an easy one where so many of the marque where produced ! my guess would be a 2 hour capacity would be right, but period tune, being lower than modern prtobably burnt less

in a similar vain the Cortina GT is homologated with a std 38l tank another 38 lites ( estate tank) in the boot AND a 62L long range one.

the lotus is homologated with 38, or 62, then 38 and 62, then changed again to 100L

therefore as the GT uses less fuel on average a38L should do 3 hour whereas an LC little over 2 - 2 1/2 . . . .

[Farbrooke]

Below is the link for the FIA list of previously homologated vehicles - with reference numbers - Copies obtainable from the MSA for a fee (no surprise there then). - think they have form on their web site
As the document opens in adobe you can do a search for all papers applicable to the required car.
On line copies APP K also on FIA web site.
Happy hunting

http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...ogations_a.pdf

[Jeremy Hall]

On the fuel tank thing-Appendix J of the period specified the maximum fuel size by engine cc-thus manufacturers added tanks as required but only up to the limit-or quite near it.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

On the fuel tank thing-Appendix J of the period specified the maximum fuel size by engine cc-thus manufacturers added tanks as required but only up to the limit-or quite near it.

and are you limited to fixing the tank in the same place as the original or subject to safety rules are you free to out it at the rear of the car (I beleive certainly one car had a second tank in the side of the car...

[zefarelly]

Simon, you just put it in buckets in the cockpit, scrutineers prefer a bit of cling film over the top though to avoid too much splashing

especially if you have a cigar on the go

[simon drabble]

haha its not as stupid a question as it first seems - apparently Lotus Elites are homolgated with abou 80 litres but originally they had a tank at the side which carried the extra fuel. everyone now has just one tank in the boot. Technically they should have the extra 20 odd litres in the side tank not all at the back - or is that allowed?

[zefarelly]

I don't think tanks are allowed in the cockpit, end of, although sports/gt cars I would imagine had some oddities, didn't the X1 have a pair of side tanks with nothing in the back? more of a single seater arrangement

[simon drabble]

yes it did - as does the Merlyn

[James Murray]

I sit between 2 50litre fibreglass fuel tanks in my Brabham! Fortunately they have rubber bag tanks inside them.

Its my view that all race cars should have a rubber bag tank. Some of the older single seaters and sports racers are so vulnerable in this area, with basically a hollow aluminium tank, hung off the chassis being protected by flimsy fibreglass bodywork.

I don't think GT/Saloon cars are much better either, and common sense should prevail here so far as complying with the homologation papers. Much safer to have one larger tank properly located, instead of 2 tanks in perilous positions in order to comply with the regs.

[zefarelly]

within reason James, but its very car specific

in the case of my car it was homologated with good tanks in good positions . . . it was a successful rally car as well so they needed to be protected

Perhaps if sensible and agreeable mods could be accepted on safety grounds a list of Homologation ammendments could be made/kept for specific cars? it was done in period, although it would need rigourous management as all the cheats would be queueing to get their cars mods homologated !

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

I don't think there is or should be an issue with this. They belonged in the first instance to the companies who paid for them. The various homologation papers have been in the public domain for years, must be out of copyright and are only required to be official copies in the context of their use with HTP.They were , probably still are , being offered for sale on E Bay recently.

The second part of this is incorrect. Copyright will subsist in all such material. The minimum period is 50 years (or 70 years or different in the US). Unless the copyright owner has specifically released them into the "public domain", then their rights are continual and only need their willingness to enforce them.

I assume that the copyright is that of the FIA, not the manufacturer, but that is my assumption, I cannot find much definitive documentation.

Whether or not there is "an issue" depends on whether the copyright owner (or licensed exploiter - the MSA in the UK) wishes to make an issue. If they do, the penalties could be severe.

So zefarelly's warnings are well founded.

Regards

Jim

P.S. What is offered on eBay may be legal, it may not. In general, people can "sell on" a document they have purchased legitimately. (But not always.) If they are photocopying papers without permission, it is almost certainly an infringement. Again whether the copyright owner is going to bother to enforce their rights may be the practical issue.

[zefarelly]

so private emails and swap meets in pub car parks it is then !

like trading football stickers or cigarette cards in the playground, I've got x y but I need z !!!

[rogerwills]

Anyone who has received their new FIA papers from the MSA should also have been provided with a bound copy of the homologation papers for their car. It took a while and some arguing, but we got a copy for the Cortina and have been assured they are on their way for the Corvette as well.

[zefarelly]

I had the same with mine Roger

its all the others 'for reference' I collect

G4, Diva GT, Turner, WSM, TT GT, and a few saloons I'm looking for now

[Brendan Roberts]

Personally I find the whole appx k thing utterly confusing. Is there a simple place of reference where one can check what is or isnt allowed on a specific car? Jeremy refers to Appx J regs for fuel tanks but I thought I was subject to appx K regs for pre-66. Its not surprising that there is so much comment on the specs of cars when there is so much uncertainty, ambiguity, smoke and mirrors about what is or isnt allowed for by the regs. Endless speculation in and out of the paddock, and seemingly no clear point of reference to check anything out. Also no wonder we hear so much about reasons to justify ali diff housings, or dog boxes, and a catalogue of other 'upgrades' or 'safety mods' or replacement of no longer avaiable parts etc, when there seems to be so much room for interpretation and no-one seems available as an arbitrator or point of reference when prepping a car. I would like to get the tank arrangements right on my Elite but am reluctant to add substantially to ATLs turnover just to be told that its 97ml too big or 48mm out of position! But I cant seem to get a clear answer as to what is permitted! Anyone know..............?

[terence]

I think I would start looking for photographic evidence Brendan,there must be photos somewhere,usually [under a magnifying glass] you can ascertain the positioning/size of whatever component you need to look at.Good luck!

[zefarelly]

when it gets that specific I think its a 1 man crusade, no one I spoke to had a clue about GT COrtinas, but every half arsed fleece monkey this side of Poland knows everything about Lotus Cortinas !

[Brendan Roberts]

But what does FIA appx K require? I would prefer to simply get it right now than risk the wrath of you lot for breeching the rules. But how do I find out what is correct? The Elite was a production GT so the regs for the tank must be written somewhere, how big, where located etc. In period the long distance spec was a 47.25 rear and a 32.75 wing tank. I reckon 35 litres an hour and I know many Elites are running 2 hours plus without needing to refuel these days but I am unaware of any with a wing tank. Also there may be safety issues relating to a wing tank these days. I dont care too much what others have fitted but would like to get mine correct. How do I check? If I can legitimatley fit an 80 litre (might be a squeeze) rear tank then great, it will save me a load of dosh trying to refettle my shell and adding a wing tank too!

[Jeremy Hall]

First things first.
Appendix J to the International sporting code is the Appendix which always applies to the curent year's formulae-so every year it is modified and updated to a greater or lesser extent. When we talk about appendix J in Historic terms we are referring to the Appendix J which applied to the year in which your particular car was running as a contemporary car.Plainly it is different for 1959 as from 69, 79 etc.
Appendix K however is a fixed set of rules which apply to cars accepted as Historic by the Historic Motor sport commission and the World Motor sport Council. Generally they run for cars which are more than 15 years old.
As a general rule we refer to Period Specification and by that we mean the way it was or was done when the car was current.Provided the car is as either it was then or a car of the same type was then when it took part in an International competition it should always comply with the regulations.
Here endeth the first lesson