Bang vs. buck

[BSchneiderFan]

A lot of people have been saying that Jaguar should dump F1 and return to Le Mans with a prototype, citing the fact that it would be less expensive and would hold out more possibility of success. So, could someone give me a rough idea of the figures? How much would it cost a manufacturer to run:

F1

WRC

IRL

Le Mans/Sebring/PLM etc. (prototype)

As above (GTS)

DTM

I'd just like to know how the figures stack up.

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm not sure what the Jag F1 budget is, but the lowest budget this year is Minardi at $53 million...Williams and McLaren are supposedly spending more than $250 million, but less than $300 million, and Ferarri is spending over $300 million...

An IRL Budget would depend on how many cars, etc...to run one for a full season and be competitive would be around $10 million...

Don't know about the others, but F1 is by far the most expensive form of racing on the planet....

Anything would be more cost-effective than F1....hell, there are mdeium sized towns that don't have a $300 million budget, and they provide police and fire protection!

[JAG]

WRC Peugout is about £60m althought the smaller teams are probably less than £20m.

I heard Toyota spent £60m on the 2 race LM program and Audi a similar amount in 2000 on LM and ALMS.

But these are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Altough Jaguar get lots of exposure in F1 it has universally been negative and jaguar are considered an expensive joke. Bentley on the other hand after 3 races has gained nothing but positive publicity and is going through a boom on the back of there racing return.

Look at Peugeot, they spent millions in F1 but realised there arena is in rallying were they get more bang per buck for there return. Same for Subaru in rallying and Jaguar if in sportscars.

Plus in sportscars, as in rallying, you can sell customer cars and get publicity with cars when the works team are not competing.

[pirenzo]

For sportscars.
The first cost is the car.

The MkIIIC R&S caccording to M'sCorner is $550'000. The Audi would probably upwards of $1 million
Then you need engines, probably $200'000 (plucking figures from the air on that one coz i'm not sure how much they cost)
Gearbox. The Hewland boxes cost £28'000+

So for a top car lets say $1.5 million

Then there's all your transport, staff, travel costs, spares, that will all cost more than the car put together a number of times over i should think.

So i'd say between 8.5 and 15 million dollars.

[Tim Northcutt]

Engine costs would depend on exactly what you're going to run...

If you adapted a NASCAR style motor or a sprint car motor like the Chrysler engine that ran in the Dallara a few years ago, you could do it for less than $200,000 each...a straight-up NASCAR motor is about $80,000-$100,000, but adapting it with fuel injection, etc., would run the cost higher...I would think that a NASCAR builder would probably do it for less than the 200K figure...

But direct racing applications engine of other types can in fact run anywhere from $200,000 - $250,000 each as a ballpark figure...the $250,000 figure was about the cost of a CART engine in recent years, and an IRL engine is a little less than $200,000....

For the rest of it, you're probably not that far off, Pirenzo, provided you're not doing a lot of overseas jumping -- A team running the ALMS plus Le Mans could probably spend about 15-20 million..

but that is a guesstimate from what I basically know from other series and applying some figures from one to another.

NOTE: A HIgher profile operation Like Penske spends a lot more than $10 million to run the IRL, probably closer to $25 million or so, but he has two drivers plus primary and backup cars from both G-Force and Dallara, etc.

[batcave]

Talking about budgets is quite a tricky one. I have seen 20 million dollars for works teams to do ALMS and Le Mans I also Know teams in Lmp 900 that have done the same on well under one mil.

[Tim Northcutt]

Under $1 million???

That's with an existing chassis, engines, etc.???

So a team could spend let's say $5 million in their first year and be fairly competitive???

Your thoughts??

[Fogelhund]

Competitive and finish races are two different stories. Dyson is competitive, but the car doesn't seem to want to finish the races.

Panoz likely didn't spend huge budgets in the last few years either.

You can do GT on just over a mil (not including new car)... I would imagine that a privateer running a MG/Lola could come close to $5 mil.

[veeten]

Why not? The best example of this in recent times is the Chrysler/Dodge Viper GTS-R. It's been around since '97, and teams have either won races or championships with it. Even with a host of upgrades over the past few seasons, the base chassis are still running out there. The only other two chassis in unbroken years of racing are the 911's and the M3's, and they're in the N-GT/GT classes.

[Tim Northcutt]

I should qualify my IRL figure above ($10 million)...

That would be for this year, since they had to buy into new chassis and engine packages (with backups, spare parts, etc.)

With a chassis that an upgrade package that factories supply (Like in the past 2 years) a team could spend $4-$6 million and be very strong and competitive with test time, etc., and probably about $3-$4 million without the frills and still run strong...

Of course, you have certain set formulas on engine packages, etc., unlike sportscars, where the variety of options can make a great difference in your on-track performance...

[Garp]

Please, use one type of currency!

It's 2003, time for the Euro!

[Garp]

estimate costs for one Year FIA-GT with one Viper

Viper GTS-R 700.000,-
Spare engine 100.000,-
Spare Gearbox 30.000,-
Tires 50.000,-

Transport 25.000,-
Tools 5.000,-
Team 100.000,-
miscelanious 100.000,-

Total 1110.000,-
Restvalue car 600.000,-

Total 510.000,-

[H16]

If you are sucessful, Jaguar (Ford) could justify the money being spent. Ferrari, Renault, and perhaps Mercedes and BMW proabably don't regret spending the $$$ to get exposure.

Having said that, I wonder how well Toyota or Ford feel spending HUGE money doing the car and engine together under one roof and not getting very much POSITIVE exposure for it. I wonder how much Honda, who actually outspent EVERYONE in 2002 (supplying two teams, advertising, developement, etc) feel watching their engines blow up.

If you win in F1, there is no price tag that could be considered outlandish. If you are from about 7-20th on the grid every week, you might as well stay home.

There is very little Jaguar in the Jaguar team. It is the Ford operation. In 1999, it was called the Stewart SF03 Ford, in 2000, the same team painted blue, magically became Jaguar R1 Cosworth and everyone magically expected in the Ford PR department that this would be some kind of British Ferrari.

Of course, the Jaguar name has bombed and for the last three seasons has wasted a perfectly good engine. I think we are seeing the first signs that Ford are realizing that the Jacques Nassar/Wolfgang Reitzle duo that had Jag third in the 2000 championship before Melbourne had no clue what they were getting into.

There is a reason why Arrows and Minardi run/ran "Cosworth" branding but the Jordan, which is basically using a slightly updated Cosworth CR4 from last year, are now using a "Ford" RS engine. It was never a good idea for Ford to become a constructor and the WORST thing possible was to try and do it with a ton of promises in PRs and under the Jag name.

Perhaps not the answer you were looking for, but what I am getting at is IF you are good in F1, that is the best advertising. If your not on TV every week except being lapped or spinning out, then advertising to turtles in a pond would be just as effective.

[MaxSport]

IRL-6 to 7m that from a team owner. Add in a top driver with a 3m retainer and 10m usd could be about right.

Privateer ALMS LMP -including LM 24- 4-5m to get beat up by Audi-try selling sponsorship for that.

Audi R8-too much

G/A DP-1-1.5-including car which should have good residual value due to the rules.

GT-about 1m

I am thinking that a good FIA GT Supercar budget will be the cost of the car and 1.5 to 2m for a Euro program and LM 24.

Don't know about WRC.

[Tim Northcutt]

Thanks, MaxSport!

My lower figures were for a bare bones operation, but with the engine formulas and such, most of the cars are within a few m.p.h. of one another....$6-$7 does sound about right for a full season without the Al Unser Jr. or Michael Andretti type retainer fee (although Michael is his own boss now)...

You make another excellent point on the sponsors for ALMS....and your point is yet another reason why I think that a lot of the newer chassis (with eh expetion of Lister) have been 675s -- why spend millions developing an LMP 900 just to get swamped in R&D $$$ by VAG and not be in the same ballpark....Sponsors want their name seen, and if you're way behind the pace, you're not on camera or getting the media coverage unless you have a gimmick (Team Nasamax, "Girl Power" team, etc) for PR hype...


To Garp:

Sorry, but I have no idea what the conversion rate is from $$$US to Euros, so all I can do is give you US figures...feel free to convert it yourself....

[BSchneiderFan]

The Euro and the dollar are worth similar amounts, aren't they?

[Tim Northcutt]

Just so that we can focus on the subject of this thread:

$1 USA = 1.14 Euro
and
$1 USA = 1.60 British Pound

That is as of Noon EDT on the New York Exchange rates today...


NOTE:

Sorry if I offend any F-1 fans out there, but I can't possibly see ANY justification for spending an F-1 Budget to go racing when you can spend at least 20 times less, be competitive and be very high profile in the racing world, as well as offer sponsors the deals you can offer them for visibility and/or exposure....

And I certainly can't see spending what Jag/Ford (whatever you want to call them) and Toyota are spending on a "Factory/Manufacturer's" perspective, or for Minardi or Sauber to spend what they are spending privately, when you can do it for a LOT LESS and have some podium finishes or wins to show for it...

[Dani Filth]

can't see Ferrari in WRC

[Tim Northcutt]

I can't either....

But for what they spend on their F-1 program they could field two factory LMP 900s, two factory LMP 675s, three GTS class cars and three GT class cars, and run an "Indy Only" IRL team, spend a big chunk of change in the testing, development and operations of all 10 teams and STILL spend less than the $330 million that they are budgeted to spend on F-1 this year...in a series that has no single "Big, World-Stage Event" like Le Mans or the Indy 500....
Nor does it have a single payday of about $2 million or more to the winner of the race...like Indy...

Sorry...outrageous F-1 money makes no sense to me....

[pirenzo]

I'm an F1 fan Tim. But i'm not offended. In fact, i positively agree.

[Nick M]

The thing you have to remember with F1 is that it has a largely European based following. All of the teams are based there (most of them in the UK) and it's historically been based around a core of major Grand Prix - UK, Italy, Germany, Belgium, etc.

Conversely if you asked your average European racing fan about the US racing scene (particularly the Indy 500) they'd look at you and mutter something like "yes, but it's not F1...." or "how hard can it be to go round in circles all day ?". It's perceived as being not overly sophisticated and hence not worthy of their interest.

As for F1 not having a big "pay day" like Indy, well it may do but you'll never find out because the prize money figures are shrouded in mystery. Suffice it to say that winning the Monaco Grand Prix is likely to be a fairly lucrative thing to do !!

The appeal (and I use that in its loosest sense because I find paint drying more interesting these days...) of F1 is not so much one big event but in the overall series. Some races are more important than others - Monaco, Monza, errr.... well, those two really !

That said, I personally find the sums being spent by F1 teams bordering on the obscene. I mean, $300 million plus just to run, what, 17 races ??! Seems daft to me but let's face it, there must be some reason why Minardi and the other bottom of the grid teams keep trying to remain in the series.

Personally I think Jaguar will never quite make it to the top - its hands are tied by too much behind the scenes politics and with Bobby Rahal they binned the one person who I believe could have helped them get their act together.

If they'd gone back to sportscar racing, however, they would have had an instant following from the UK fans at Le Mans and this would have trickled down into their other big target market (the US) if they'd competed in the ALMS. As it is, it's Bentley who is left with the hoards of sunburnt Brits cheering them on and getting the publicity.

[Tim Northcutt]

Well-stated Nick M....couldn't agree more on many of your points...

But is does seem like a waste...especially when Jaguar could really benefit in the North American market from a sportscar effort....

[Fogelhund]

Re: the Jag sportscar effort comments... They could easily paint an LMP green, have some middle aged chap drive in home, and have him walk into the house and tell the wife he bought a sportscar. The wife would just see an Xtype or whatever and walk away shaking her head. 99.8% of Americans wouldn't even know that Jag really didn't have such a car, and just think it was a cool thing that Jag was racing, but wouldn't be sussed to see it.

Sportscar Racing is pretty marginalized here right now, and without a great deal of marketing efforts, will continue to be.

[Tim Northcutt]

If Jag would buy that spot on weekend NASCAR telecasts, or IRL telecasts, or any of the ALMS telecasts that will be on the networks this summer, it would cause quite a stir in America....

It sure hasn't kept Audi from showing their ads on those same telecasts with their Le Mans-winning LMP followed by the A8 rolling on the test track through a high-banked curve above the guy at the end of the commercial...

[Nick M]

Marketing / advertising seems to be a funny old game.

I mean, 4 years ago people looked at the Audi effort at Le Mans and wondered why a team synonomous with rallying and touring cars suddenly decided to go sports car racing.

Their 4th placed finish (or was it 3rd and 4th ?? - I forget...) that year was achieved in a quiet understated way but undoubtedly lead to the successes of the following 3 years (and no doubt more this year) and to Bentley's entry back into the sports car arena. If you now look at Audi you think (well, I do...) of total domination of sports car racing in the toughest arena there is, the Le Mans 24 hours. Quite an impressive turn-around in the way people perceive them in my opinion, and I have to say this applies just as much to the US as it does in Europe. In fact, I think Audi has probably done itself more good in the US by competing in the ALMS than it has in Europe by winning Le Mans.

The fact that, with Bentley, they've also achieved major recognition without people immediately saying "oooh, it's just a re-badged Audi" is equally impressive, i.e. keeping the successes of the two companies separate.

Personally I think Jaguar picked the wrong arena to play in - F1 is, and always will be, a case where if you don't have *all* of the right ingredients (designer, aerodynamics team, engine, infrastructure, organisation, etc.) then you may as well just not bother. It requires a commitment *way* beyond anything a major company like Ford could ever be prepared to give because, ultimately, they're always looking at the costs and justifying themselves to the board. It's also why I don't think the Ford rally team will ever quite do the business either - they just seem to only ever give a 95% effort.