Disabled drivers and marshalling

[scorch]

With the welcome return of Alex Zanardi to competitive motorsport it got me thinking, I know there are a few disabled drivers out there but I have never had an incident with one.

I was wondering what peoples views are on incident handling these cars. I don’t see it as a problem for a major incident, but what about the smaller incidents. I.e. we may leave a car somewhere, but would not want to leave the driver in it.

What if there is a fire or a high risk of fire, fuel tank leaking for example, how would you tackle it??

[Stephen Green]

If the car were in a dangerous place then I think the best advice is to ask for the Rescue Unit or doctors to assist in removing the driver from the car. Of course, it very much depends on the disability the driver suffers from, as many are able to get out of the car unaided. There was a guy driving recently with a disabled sticker on his car (Lydden last month) and his disability was diabetes!

I would say if you are in any doubt, ask for assistance from the medical staff.

[Mark Mitchell]

I think that when there is a driver who suffers with a disability (Not a disabled driver!!) then the marshals should be informed as to what that disability is. As Stephen says, a driver might not neccessarily have only limited use of limbs etc but might be affected by a condition such as diabetes!
Changing the tone slightly, I once attended a Porsche at Silverstone that had come to a stop at Brooklands. Noticing the orange disc on the door I was unsure as to what extent he/she might be "Disabled".
Upon opening his door I noticed a walking stick and offered him my arm to pull himself out of the car. He promptly told me to P**s Off and that he wasn't totally useless yet!
A lesson learned by me!

[mark ch]

And how often do we get briefed if there is a disabled driver - rarely. I can remember at a meeting at Rockingham. Where we and the rescue crews were walking at lunchtime though the paddock we saw a disabled driver(in wheelchair) We and the rescue crew hadn't been briefed on him and the car, on one side was missing the disabled sticker.

And at the end of the day, most disabled drivers can get out/away from the car with less assistance than drivers of a larger girth.

[ascarracinguk]

i had this problem last year...the superkarts at donny...i was in the cage and a kart span and was facing the wrong way up the track...we couldnt go out for about 2 laps because of the karts whizzing by and wondered why he didnt get out...turns out he was disabled and couldnt move his legs....noone ever told us that there was a disabled driver on the circuit and we couldnt see the 'D' on his kart cos it was on the back facing away from us!....very wierd situation

[JimW]

Noticing the orange disc on the door I was unsure as to what extent he/she might be "Disabled".

A 'D' surely unless you are implying he was drinking the methanol?

Speaking of orange disks, one series co-ordinator recently had a good thought to help the spectators and decided that the Class A cars should be distinguishable and came up with the idea that an orange disk would be a good way of doing it! Since the cars are of a sort which is seen on hillclimbs using methanol this did not seem impossible at first until enquiries were made. After lunch the cars came out with a green disk!

Jim

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally posted by JimW
A 'D' surely unless you are implying he was drinking the methanol?

See James, even then I had all the makings of a great Observer!!

[SJC-214]

At Coombe last week, we had 2 disabled drivers racing in the 250 karts. Adrain Fawdington made a point of contacting every post on the circuit to tell everybody what type of disability these guys had. One was a paraplegic and the other had a artificial arm. Why can't other clubs inform the Observers and Incident Officers?

[alec]

If you know they're disabled, surely the best way is to ask them what the best way to get tehm out of the car is. This is of course assuming they're conscious. To an extent this may apply to able bodied drivers who might need a hand (just try getting in and out of a GT car and you'll see it's not easy).
If you get a response similar to Obeserver was given, then at least you tried.

[KayBee]

Disabled competitors are not just confined to car racing - there is a solo bike rider who competes mostly in the North West at such circuits as Anglesey, Oulton and Aintree with one usable arm.

He has all the controls on the right handlebar the left one is completely bereft of any. Unfortunately we met him when he was unsighted at the Shell hairpin at Oulton and parted company with his bike.

I had to help him fastening his helmet strap afterwards.

[stevebrown]

I remember one very wet day at Snet up at Richies where Mark? Haynes ran into the gravel trap in his Porsche. We knew of his disablity but because of the conditions and the dangerous postion he was in, felt we had to get him out. Being ordinary incident marshals we had no training in getting drivers out, so we asked race control for the battenburg or stoppage so the rescue unit could go out to him. We were refused, they wanted the race to continue and thought he was ok in the car! So we proceded to get him out ourselves, with some instruction from Mr Haynes.(He understood we were apprehensive about getting him out and promised not to sue if we dropped him) We were not very happy about the situation and complained. But at the next training day we had a training seesion about disabled drivers which included a talk with Mr Haynes and another driver. Maybe all clubs should include this at some stage for all track marshals.

Steve B

[flying muppet]

Originally posted by KayBee

I had to help him fastening his helmet strap afterwards.

My mother warned me about ladies like you!!!

[Peter Harding]

This is a sore subject with me. I brought it up at an MSA meeting last year and was told chenges were in hand and all would be sorted. Blue book this year has changed the car sticker from orange to blue?
Any disability must be mentioned on their licence application and may lead to medical examination, but I don't think it goes on the licence. That makes it difficult for a chief marshal to advise the troops.
There is a bit in blue book about declaring a disability on entering but says that info is for the sole information of the CMO.
Also why is the sticker only on the drivers side. If impact with barriers is on off side, its more important to see the sticker as he/she will have to get out of passenger side. Thats more difficult and we wont see the sticker.

[Peter Harding]

Next: what about temporary disablement. If driver had an accident and broke his leg or even just a severe sprain, isnt that just as important. He wont be used to dealing with the disablement and wont be practiced in quick escape. I have had a guy get out of a car after impact and drag himself to the barriers with a major limp. When suggesting a stop for medical treatment to race control, they told me he had a tennis accident the day before.

[Peter Harding]

And finally - what about disabled marshals? As an observer, shouldn't I be warned about the capabilities of a disabled marshal to avoid putting them in danger. I'm not sure there is any process.
I have worked with about 6 or 7 this year, most of whom don't advise me but I see their limp. One didn't have a limp but mentioned just as we started that he had a wooden leg.
Give me your views and I will try to bring it up again at the MSA this year.

[JimW]

If a driver needs helping out of a car then offer help. It does not matter whether they are disabled, winded or just thinking "...ing hell, that was expensive". They will tell you what they need.

Tip: Always stand between the driver and traffic. Yes I know this is contrary to the advice you get given at novice training sessions but approach things with thought, not doctrine. If a driver is dazed or confused you need to be shepherding them to safety. People move away from others standing around them. If you are the "safe" side of them they move away from you and towards the danger. So stand between them and danger and they will naturally move in the safe direction you want to assist them towards. Of course, keep a look-out and be aware of your safety. Remember, if you want to marshal, you are putting yourself in a place of greater danger. Just be careful out there!

Don't ask for a rescue unit - how dare you try and wake us up?

Best of all use disabled drivers to wind up your colleagues. Sprint in the Isle of Man, driver rolls car quite spectacularly. After incident, call over Chief MO (anaesthetist) and tell him that driver has no feeling in one leg. Stand back and watch MO realise that said leg is wooden. Then treat driver for serious laughter .

More seriously, as a Rescue unit crew member and marshal generally, I don't really think this is much of a problem. Treat what you find and don't assume anything. If awake, the driver will tell you if there is any problem and if they need any help. If they are unconscious then you will be getting stuck in and helping them. Few disabilities acceptable for motorsport are "hidden" and in any case rescue crew (particularly on rallies) have spectators and others to worry about who might be diabetic etc, etc.

Regards

Jim

[G Tanner]

I believe the D sticker may also mean that they are Diabetic, so you really don't know what to expect. As mentioned earlier, at Combe a point is made at the observers briefing of any disabled racers for that day. Observers should!! be then passing this info on. Make sure you ask your observer when he does his briefing if you are not sure.

[JimW]

Originally posted by Peter Harding
And finally - what about disabled marshals? As an observer, shouldn't I be warned about the capabilities of a disabled marshal to avoid putting them in danger. I'm not sure there is any process.
I have worked with about 6 or 7 this year, most of whom don't advise me but I see their limp. One didn't have a limp but mentioned just as we started that he had a wooden leg.
Give me your views and I will try to bring it up again at the MSA this year.

Well actually Peter; No I don't. I think you are over-dramatising a minor issue.

Marshals are required when they sign-on to say tha they are not suffering from any disability which might hinder tehem in th eperformance of their duites (or words to that effect). That seems good enough to me.

Are you really saying that you had 6 or 7 people with you in one year who had a walking disability which affected their ability/safety as marshals? Pardon me if I doubt this.

Let people take responsibility and just relax. See my signature below.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally posted by JimW
Well actually Peter; No I don't. I think you are over-dramatising a minor issue.

Marshals are required when they sign-on to say that they are not suffering from any disability which might hinder them in the performance of their duties (or words to that effect). That seems good enough to me.

Are you really saying that you had 6 or 7 people with you in one year who had a walking disability which affected their ability/safety as marshals? Pardon me if I doubt this.

Let people take responsibility and just relax. See my signature below.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

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[JimW]

Oops, sorry for the duiplicate post. My connection is so slow that I sometimes cannot delete finger trouble before the 10 minute time-out.

Jim

[Steve Tarrant]

Well, as a recently disabled marshal, I can give my perspective on this. Basically, I've been instructed by the MSA that until such time as I can throw away wheelchairs, sticks and the like, I am NOT ALLOWED either on the bank or in pit lane.

Therefore, apart from Thruxton I am finding there aren't any jobs I can do at other circuits, so am reduced to being a spectator and support my wife Jackie in her marshalling efforts.

And at the current rate of progress, this may be my situation for another 2-3 years, as things aren't mending as quick as I thought or like.

Cheers


Steve

[Stephen Green]

What about the paddock or race control Steve? Surely the MSA ruling is to protect you as much as anything else, especially where you may be in a place where speed of movement is an important factor?

[Steve Tarrant]

Agree why the MSA placed that ruling on me, that issue is not in question.

Regarding paddock work, I think it's a case of BARC not letting me work where cars are involved, except at Thruxton where I'm separated from pitlane by another triple layer of armco.

Race control? Well, I suspect within the BARC side of things that there aren't any vacancies in the meetings I attend, and so far I haven't been invited to train up for any.

12 months ago it was suggested I try time keeping, so I contacted Tony Daff, gave all my details, was told I would hear about training over the winter, but no call came. I even had Trevor Jackson take up the matter on my behalf, but still no joy there.

Steve

[Stephen Green]

I can only suggest you persevere.