Is IRL turning into CART?

[pilgrim]

At Indy this year I was speaking with an old
race fan friend who mentioned that he was getting
quite disgusted with the 500 and with IRL - that
he thought it was turning into CART....

I suppose he was referring to engine leasing
and control of the manufacturers.
As CC has been falling apart, some dominant teams
and drivers are coming back to the IRL or at
least to Indy. But I'm not really sure why he was
so irritated. I enjoyed the race more this year
than any year since the split. Good competition,
good drivers, exciting racing, every lead after
lap 101 important. Plus post race tornado dodging.
Although I was amazed that it got restarted after
it was delayed and then stopped!

I'm interested to hear what others in this group think
about his view of changes in the IRL.

Are you likewise upset by changes in the IRL?
Do you see the IRL turning into CART?

[gttouring]

of course one is turning into te other or rather their roles in the split are being reversed, and mabe an absorbtion of one into the other will happen, or a merger of disinterested parties may happen...
this type of writing has been on every wall i've seen...

[Kicking-back]

The IRL is turning into CART, yes.

Now, if only next year's calendar was 8 ovals and 8 road/street races, it would be an excellent series.

That would be ideal.

[Teretonga]

Well lets go back a few years...What would have happened if tony had bought up all of CARTS stock(or as much as he coulfd have laid his hands on) before the split... Would it have cost him as much as it has to run the IRL since 1995? What he has is ownership of exactly what CART was, the same teams, manufacturers etc...Everything changes and nothing is new.

[Chucky]

Unfortunately, IRL wil at best only ever look like a faded photocopy of CART.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally posted by Chucky
Unfortunately, IRL wil at best only ever look like a faded photocopy of CART.

And CART was just a faded photocopy of USAC with a little SCCA Formula 5000 thrown in.

Unfortunately concerning engines, and chassis, IRL is becoming far too much like CART, special engines and chassis,(they should tell Honda to take their Honmor engine leases and shove them up their buttocks) only from "allowed" concerns.
T.George's bullshi---- about stock blocks, is farce and it makes him look like an hypocrite, it is time he take a look at his grandfather's rules concerning engines and stop being a hypocrite by adopting rules similar to the ones that made Indy great.
Bob

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
The IRL is turning into CART, yes.

Now, if only next year's calendar was 8 ovals and 8 road/street races, it would be an excellent series.

That would be ideal.

Ideal for who KB? Not IRL fans.

Why is it so hard for the CC fans to understand that there are fans of this series that like it just the way it is? Hard as it is for you to imagine, we like this series, we like ovals, and we like the drivers who race on them. A couple of road courses might be OK, (like NASCAR) but fans of IndyCars want to see them on ovals. Thats what we do. Its part of IndyCar heritage, and American racing heritage, from the USAC days, and the formula works. If you want to see the schedule you envision, than stick with OWRS. Tell Gentilozzi, not TG. I get my fill of open wheel road course action from F1.

In no way, do I want the IRL to become CART.

[rush1]

You can call it what you want but there needs to be a unified open-wheel racing series. George needs to go after Long Beach, get a race in Mexico and fight like hell to get Herdez and Gigante in the fold. He needs to breakup Newman Hass. Any of these eventualities could close down that other series.

If this fails TG might have to negotiate to bring an end to this debacle. The devil of course is in the details. He might offer a couple of seats on the IMS board to one of those currently running the other series. An independent CEO to run the IRL indy car series might be in order. Some plan needs to be worked out for everyone to save face. But its going to be tough.

Meanwhile NASCAR zooms ahead while the children are left to bicker over the small scraps left on the table.

Very depressing...

[Bob Riebe]

In 1968 USAC had 22 races including six road races, in 1971 USAC had 12 races with zero road races but one race in Argentina.
IRL needs 4 to 5 road races, preferably 2 in Canada and 3 at road courses who used to run USAC road races (Indianapolis RaceWay Park would be a good idea, although Road America should be on for sure.)
Tony George should listen to some of the reasons he started IRL and mix it with what made USAC great; a few one mile dirt tracks for a National Championship, would not hurt.
Bob

[Purist]

There's no way, that I can see, that a current sanction of "top level" open wheel racing would run on anything but pavement.

Yes IRL in some ways is morphing into CART. Road courses and races outside of the US, or even North America, are significant in the history of American open wheel racing, no matter how you slice it. There needs to eventually be one series, but for that to happen, road courses, street circuits, races outside of this country, and different car regulations will have to be made part of the package.

Here's a good US based open wheel series schedule, IMHO.

Ten ovals (Indianapolis, Pocono, Michigan, Lausitzring, Rio, Homestead, Motegi, Milwaukee, Dover, Phoenix)

Six temporary courses (Surfers Paradise, Long Beach, Vancouver, Toronto, Cleveland, St. Petersburg)

Eight road courses (Laguna Seca, Portland, Road America, Mid Ohio, Mont Tremblant, Watkins Glen, Mexico City, Monterrey)

That gives you 24 events on five continents in seven countries. You stay primarily in the US (15 events), and you offer a wide variety of courses, even as far as ovals are concerned.

[Bob Riebe]

USAC's first road race was in 1965, in 1966 one of its road races was in Japan.
An old time USAC racer Arnie Knepper finished third behind Jackie Stewart and Bobby Unser, and two places ahead of Graham Hill.
Here are the results:http://www.motorsport.com/stats/champ/data/ch196617.pdf

IRL can go across the border but remember who its main audience is.
Bob

[mountainstar]

Originally posted by rush1
You can call it what you want but there needs to be a unified open-wheel racing series. George needs to go after Long Beach, get a race in Mexico and fight like hell to get Herdez and Gigante in the fold. He needs to breakup Newman Hass. Any of these eventualities could close down that other series.

Very depressing...

Hasn't Mr. George done enough already? And why should the success of the IRL be dependent on picking the bones of CART?

If you want to end the war between both parties, Mr George needs to be pushed aside. That will help take away most of the bad blood in one fell swoop.

[climb]

IRL is not turning into CART; they've already done it, in the sense of becoming the richer and the leader of the two.

[marcus]

do we really need 2 threads on this matter ?

I could say so much just from the title in this thread but i wont because its a family forum

[Kicking-back]

The problem at the moment is the general public just aren't interested in IRL or Champ Car and both will die once the people who're bank-rolling them run out of money or have had enough.

A schedule of 8 ovals and 8 roac/street courses would be a good balance - and 16 events is about the right number.

Teams can plan their budgets better with a fixed schedule - which is also manageable.

So - where should these 16 races be?

OVALS - Indianapolis, Motegi. And 6 other ovals IN THE USA.

ROAD/STREET - Vancouver, Toronto, Mexico City, Monterrey Mexico, Surfers Paradise, Long Beach, Road America, Cleveland.

16 races in total - the main focus is on the US plus Canada and Mexico.

The only races overseas are Surfers, because it's a great event, and Motegi because it's a good promotional tool for the Japanese engine makers.

I'd stop any desire to have more foreign venues, and promote the hell out of this plan as America's top racing series.

The best teams and drivers from both series - with as many of the talented US drivers as possible - and promote the hell out of the drivers too. Make them household names through the marketing - and they'll become heroes on the track.

[racer69]

Originally posted by mountainstar
Hasn't Mr. George done enough already? And why should the success of the IRL be dependent on picking the bones of CART?

If you want to end the war between both parties, Mr George needs to be pushed aside. That will help take away most of the bad blood in one fell swoop.

Pushing it all aside would just bring back to brewing problems from the pre-split era.

Even if George hadn't done anything, the way CART was heading back then, there was trouble ahead.

[Purist]

KB, that schedule is alright. I was trying to cover a few other markets, and give certian parties, like the Brazilians, something back. USAC ran at Mont Tremblant, and as a permanent course, I think it's a better course for Quebec. Montreal already has the Canadian GP. In a few years, we may lose Vancouver. In case that happens, there is a road course and oval going up known as Active Mountain Raceway. The oval would work well. It's 0.75-miles, with a configuration like those of Kentucky, Chicagoland, and Kansas. I just had a thought on a better way to do a potential European race. Are anyy of you familiar with The Race of Two Worlds? They were held at Monza in 1957-58, as 500 mile races on the oval there. It was a coming together of the world's top flight open wheel community, meaning USAC and F1. Something like that at Lausitzring would bring hundreds of thousands of spectators, and massive media coverage, both of which would not be bad things at this stage.

[Kicking-back]

Good points, purist.

But I don't think a meeting with F1 would achieve anything at the moment.

IndyCar/Champ Car needs to build as a strong US-based series.

Turn the casual viewers into fans.

[Purist]

Of course, but the current tv package isn't doing anything really for their exposure.

The real question is how many casual fans can we reasonably expect to pull in in this country? If we can't get very many back, we have to have some flexibility to maintain open wheel racing in this country in some form, even if a number of events aren't here. It would be a very sad day if F1 become the only top flight open wheel series in the world.

[Kicking-back]

True.

But without a unification and a balanced schedule, the whole lot will die.

Uniting and having a 8/8 split of ovals and road courses is the only way to have a strong open-wheel series in the Americas.

[Bob Riebe]

MONZA yes, fix it and use it.

[rustyfan]

Here's how my unified schedule would look (20 races in total);

OVALS (9) - Homestead, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, Michigan, Milwaukee, Motegi, Phoenix, Pocono, Texas

ROAD COURSES (6) - Interlagos, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Mexico City, Road America, Watkins Glen

STREET CIRCUITS (5) - Cleveland, Long Beach*, St. Petersburg, Surfers Paradise, Toronto

* Included ONLY due to its history and atmosphere - the current, raped, layout might as well be bulldozed for all I (really) care.

Fifteen races in the US plus one each in Japan, Brazil, Mexico, Australia and Canada.

Would work for me.

[Snrub]

Yes ofcourse it's turned into much of what CART was. Can anyone tell me what the governing philosophy of the IRL is? To me it looks like "TG will call the shots."

As for hardcore race fans, some people only want to see ovals, some only want to see roadcourses, some want to see a mix. That doesn't necessarly dictate what the philosophy of the IRL is or what it should be.

As was suggested, I don't get why TG just didn't buy out CART back when the stock price took the big dive. That seems to be what he wanted, only now there simply isn't as much public willingness to watch openwheel. In effect he screwed himself.

[Purist]

Changes to street courses, like Long Beach, are usually dictated by construction. Long Beach was not nearly what it is now back in 1975. The biggest change for the track has been coping with the expansion of the convetion center.

If you switch Vancouver out in favoer of Active Mountain Raceway you get a 24 race schedule with 11 ovals, 5 temporary courses, and 8 road courses. For a simply split, it's 11 ovals to 13 road/streeet circuits. It's a pretty even spread, and like I said, affords great variety, even in ovals.

I, for obvious reasons, have reservations about running these open wheel cars at Texas, Atlanta, or Charlotte. Las Vegas might be a better choice. it might also be less destructive to the field than a place like Dover, which was on my proposed schedule.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by marcus
do we really need 2 threads on this matter ?

I could say so much just from the title in this thread but i wont because its a family forum

No we don't.

Seems like some folks want to bring the failed ideas of the other series here. Sorry, but this series is doing fine and the sweeping changes suggested here aren't necessary and will not happen. Besides, we're in the middle of a great season, the series has a real buzz to it now, and is expieriencing real growth, and Indy was fantastic, so why all this talk about unification now?

Is OWRS going out-of-business or something? :confused: