F1 Tyre rule is mad and will not save money or aid competition

bosch! · 17 Jan 2005, 20:26 (Ref:1203216)

How can it be sensible to limit high performance racing cars to one set of tyres for qualifying and racing? Surely there is a safety issue here especially in wet conditions.

Also it will not aid competition as only cars with perfect rear ends and set ups, ie cars that have the biggest budgets will still have useable front or rears near the end of the race. Plus to do a tyre test you are going to have to run a full race simulation, how will that cut costs for the smaller teams.

What will happen in the even of carbon shards on the track? will some elect to not to change tyres during the SC period in the hopes of gaining an advantage at the next race. Can you imagine the carnage at Indy 2004 if this rule had been in force then

Seems like a half assed rule that will have a negative effect

Marbot · 17 Jan 2005, 20:32 (Ref:1203225)

Many carbon parts(wings etc)are now kevlar coated so shards should no longer be a big problem.And it's up to the teams to come up with a car that can go race distance on one set of tyres,whatever their budget.

Kicking-back · 17 Jan 2005, 20:44 (Ref:1203236)

The rule's been discussed on here a few times.

I for one think it is a positive one.

Why shouldn't a set of tyres last 190 miles?

bosch! · 17 Jan 2005, 20:59 (Ref:1203242)

Quote:

Many carbon parts(wings etc)are now kevlar coated so shards should no longer be a big problem.And it's up to the teams to come up with a car that can go race distance on one set of tyres,whatever their budget.

Shouldnt be a problem? well we'll see I guess. Yes the smaller teams will produce a car that can run 190 miles on one set of tyres but will it be

a) Closer to the front runners, ie more competitive
b) Cost the smaller teams less money to develop

Because I thought that was the idea of the rules package. we could also throw in

c) Be safer for Drivers, Officials and Spectators.

I know its been discussed before but like Qualifying changes the closer it gets to reality the more suspect it looks.

BootsOntheSide · 17 Jan 2005, 21:05 (Ref:1203248)

All very valid questions there, I'm not convinced that this rule will work, although it could produce an interesting situation as teams who look after their tyres catch up with those who don't as the race goes on. Also, it may reduce the number of pitstops, which is itself likely to be a benefit. The jury's out though.

Silk Cut Jaguar · 17 Jan 2005, 21:16 (Ref:1203261)

Even if the car is perfectly balanced, it still leaves the driver the option of shredding his tyres while pushing for another position. The one tyre rule worked for years in the past, I see no reason why it shouldn't now... if anything I'd argue that short-life tyres helped ruin the actual racing.

According to guys at BAR-Honda damage being done by 'shards of carbon fibre' is actually a myth.

**Adam43** · 17 Jan 2005, 22:08 (Ref:1203305)

Not saving money? It'll save some for the small teams (less tyres),but not a significant amount. Although, in theory, they should need less tyres for testing as well as racing.

Aid competition? It depends what you mean. All teams have the opportunity to do well on whatever tyres they have. Nothing changed there. Will it bring the cars closer together? Nah - it won't make a big difference either way.

It may mean that people will have different state tyres at the end of the race, which could be a guy who is quick at the beginning of the race is (relatively) slower at the end. Remember Spain 1986 (although Mansell had changed to get new tyres).

Safety? Getting a puncture from debris is the same whether running on long life tyres or short life tyres. Long life tyres might take more hits. Little change here.

Where those the only reasons? No! Another was to slow the cars - this may well be the main reasoning. The tyres will be harder, the cars slower. This is will happen. If you consider thsi a priority, which many do then it is a good thing.

Would I have introduced this rule? Nah, I'd have got rid of refuelling! - Although I wouldn't be trying to achieve all of the above!

Sodemo · 17 Jan 2005, 22:53 (Ref:1203333)

What happens during dry / wet / dry races?

Silk Cut Jaguar · 17 Jan 2005, 23:32 (Ref:1203357)

They're allowed to pit for wet tyres and I presume if the track dries out they would just change back to their original dry set.

Gabrio · 17 Jan 2005, 23:38 (Ref:1203360)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

The rule's been discussed on here a few times.

I for one think it is a positive one.

Why shouldn't a set of tyres last 190 miles?

Fully agree. Furthermore, hard tires and less downforce = less assisted driving and more brains. That is probably why Barrichello starts whining

bosch! · 17 Jan 2005, 23:58 (Ref:1203366)

Back in the old days they used slick tyres. After 190 miles its going to be fun finding the grooves. The first Ferrari DQ will probably have this board in uproar about how silly the rule was in the first place. I guess the decision on discernable grooves goes to the local stewards so we will have 19 different definitions all of which could be apealed.

GP Racer · 18 Jan 2005, 00:10 (Ref:1203372)

Now drivers will have to pay attention to tire wear, and adjust their driving habits around that.

I think it will lead to alot more passing and strategy from the drivers. MS may have to think twice about doing those incredibly fast laps when passing somebody thats in the pits, for fear of wearing his tires out. Drivers who aren't the smoothest, like Alonso, may have to adjust their hard driving habits. Leaders may have to give up positions to save tire's, but maybe later in the race they can regain it when others have lost there's.

Alot can happen... Or alot may not!

DKGandBH · 18 Jan 2005, 00:11 (Ref:1203373)

Actually bosch, I thought that is was the Michelin runners that were the worst (or best maybe) at returning to the pits with "slick" tyres...

DKGandBH

Kirk · 18 Jan 2005, 00:17 (Ref:1203374)

I agree with Adam, they should have banned refueling before implementing the tyre rule but time will tell as to the impact this rule will have on the sport. To be honest, I don't think any of us really know how this will pan out. I'm not sure even the engineers know at this stage so it does add to the anticipation.

Rich R · 18 Jan 2005, 00:22 (Ref:1203377)

it could be interesting, with some drivers screaming off at the start of a race, and some prefering to bide their time coming on strong later on in a race, ala prost.
or the teams will end up calculating the tyre wear to the smallest degree, and the status quo remains the same, who knows

Kirk · 18 Jan 2005, 00:48 (Ref:1203390)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP Racer

Now drivers will have to pay attention to tire wear, and adjust their driving habits around that.

I think it will lead to alot more passing and strategy from the drivers. MS may have to think twice about doing those incredibly fast laps when passing somebody thats in the pits, for fear of wearing his tires out. Drivers who aren't the smoothest, like Alonso, may have to adjust their hard driving habits. Leaders may have to give up positions to save tire's, but maybe later in the race they can regain it when others have lost there's.

Alot can happen... Or alot may not!

Agreed .... and I think it is time for a control tyre to complement this rule.

In a way it would be a shame to not see Alonso sawing at the steering wheel or Schumi pulling off lightning laps when needed. But maybe (at least I hope) we underestimate the engineering aspect, maybe the smooth steady approach will not be the answer in every race.

bosch! · 18 Jan 2005, 01:47 (Ref:1203429)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKGandBH

Actually bosch, I thought that is was the Michelin runners that were the worst (or best maybe) at returning to the pits with "slick" tyres...

DKGandBH

I do know that but nobodys going to give a donald (duck) if a Toyota gets DQ'd but you will think that you're at Heathrow Airport with all the whinning the Ferrari crew will do if it happens to them

DKGandBH · 18 Jan 2005, 04:45 (Ref:1203482)

As soon as one team (whoever) returns to the pit with a "slick" tyre, a precedent has been set that the other teams will use as defence if they get pinged for it.

DKGandBH

**Adam43** · 18 Jan 2005, 09:15 (Ref:1203583)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

In a way it would be a shame to not see Alonso sawing at the steering wheel or Schumi pulling off lightning laps when needed.

As putting in quick laps at the pitstop will still be important for track position. We may see that Michael still does that as it will be worth the risk of worn tyres near the end - if he has got ahead. The problem may be that he will be kind to his tyres behind someone until the stops, but that is the situation now.

bosch! · 18 Jan 2005, 12:06 (Ref:1203695)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKGandBH

As soon as one team (whoever) returns to the pit with a "slick" tyre, a precedent has been set that the other teams will use as defence if they get pinged for it.

DKGandBH

Not so, its up to the stewards whether you are pinged or not. Depends on the cop on the spot and every circuit has its own set of cops. Even then you get your day in court but its unlikly to settle anything definitivly. But if they ping you and not the guy behind you the other guy gets off I guess even though you may think his tyres are as bald as yours.

Its a can of worms.

Sodemo · 18 Jan 2005, 12:11 (Ref:1203697)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

As putting in quick laps at the pitstop will still be important for track position. We may see that Michael still does that as it will be worth the risk of worn tyres near the end - if he has got ahead.

Yeah, then we'll see TGF's trademark "eat wall" blocking tactics

**Adam43** · 18 Jan 2005, 13:22 (Ref:1203748)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKGandBH

As soon as one team (whoever) returns to the pit with a "slick" tyre, a precedent has been set that the other teams will use as defence if they get pinged for it.

IIRC the rule does not check the slickness of the tyre. They can lose there grooves as long as there is no increase in performance due to this. Greay area yes.

However they cope running about 2/3rds of the race for some of the races before, so with 'harder' tyres they should cope again. We'll see...

tater · 18 Jan 2005, 14:03 (Ref:1203774)

when i first heard i though what a stupid idea!! But after thinking about it motogp etc only change tyres when flat and they manage to complete race distance however sometimes it is a challenge to finish lol, all it means is that the drivers will have to adapt to grip levels they are given, everyone will be in the same boat.

It is abit of a shame though as pit stops for tyres have always, for me anyway, been part of car racing which makes it different from watching a motorbike race.

But we will see what happens soon enough!! i just hope that it ends out to be a good thing and results in more power handed to the driver than someone working out pit stop strategy.

Glen · 18 Jan 2005, 14:14 (Ref:1203782)

When most people are calling for ways to give more of the difference to the driver I would have thought that this is an ideal new rule. Jenson Button thinks it will enliven the last ten or so laps, whereupon we will discover who has driven well and who has shredded their tyres, and that sounds like a damned good plan to me... just when you think that one driver has it all sewn up and a tewnty second gap to the second placed car is too much to overhaul, the leader's tyres go beyond their best and he starts dropping three or more seconds per lap - cue the titanic close-of-the-race battle, with driver "A" on knackered rubber defending for all he's worth whilst the (now) quicker driver "B" trys to get through. Whilst that might sound like quite a few coincidences on top of each other, it isn't all that unlikely - certainly there aren't many ways in racing to end up with a quicker car behind a slower one, but one-race tyres is one of them.

Super Tourer · 18 Jan 2005, 14:15 (Ref:1203784)

I'm in wait and see mode on this one, sure drivers will have to look after their tyres (back in the old days looking after the car in general was one of the skills of an F1 driver...), as Adam says the amount of wear allowed at the end of a race is a grey area, I have no doubt it will be tested to the limit of the rulebook at some point in the season.

When I am in full cynic mode I don't believe that (more or less) any rule you could come up with would save F1 teams money in their current mindset, they may well reduce the tyre bill but spend it on electronics, testing limits will in theory save money until teams decide to develop even better rolling roads/test rigs and run them 27/4 or whatever.

You can't implement saving money on teams who currently have the will and apparently the money to spend, it simply gets diverted into something else on the car or into the poach staff/drivers pot for later.

Finances amongst the big players are more often than not an on/off switch, one minute the money is there, the next it isn't.

As for aiding the competition - presumably the car that is most sympathetic on it's tyres combined with the smoothest driver should have tyres in the best condition at the end of the race - will this be the fastest way though, or will cars running to the total limit of the tyre be more successful?

The opinion of one former F1 designer was that the ultimate race car was one that won then broke down immediately after the finish line, proving that it had been used to it's maximum and had done exactly the job it was designed for - in other words it carried no 'fat'.

It will be interesting to see tyres after a race....