GTE Speculation

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by kyoung

That makes absolutely no sense whatever, they have already designed the cars, and the only difference is that they don’t have to develop another fictitious version for racing. They don’t have to produce matching anything.

That's not logical. If they have an inferior car, they either have to develop a new road car (most likely a homologation special) or stop competing. The former leads to an explosion of costs, the latter leads to a one make series.

[JAG]

I don't mind BoP in GT3, it's a series aimed at gentleman drivers, all that matters is the cars are cool, have equal performance and are affordable (something that isn't being addresed).

When it comes to GTE, BoP should be kept to a minimum, manufactuers should have a greater influence on the performance of the cars than the rule makers.

The one exception I would make, and it's the one some dislike, are cases like BMW, if they want to compete in GTE I do think it's correct to give them enough performance breaks to ensure a car like the M3 is competitive, their entry has been an overwhelming plus for the class.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Road cars are not race cars.

Really, then why have 200 mph road cars with carbon brakes that manufacturers insist on testing at the Ring? Hell in the early days of racing they didn’t trailer cars to the track. The only difference between a race car and a road car is one never races at a track. You can race anything, it’s just that you have this mindset that if a manufacturer doesn’t spend millions developing a so called race version it can’t be a legitimate race car and that’s just a straw man argument. It’s the idiotic love of complexity for complexity sake, or again looking for that angle where the weakling can find an edge in the rules.

I remember the big dust up between Nissan and Porsche about Ring times. Porsche’s stance was something to the effect that they could not get close to the lap times Nissan claimed with the GT-R. There was this volley of insults and innuendo hurled back and forth for weeks in what could have been settled in less than 8 minutes if either manufacturer had the guts. I would like to see a race series that settled these kinds of disputes and I’m sure a lot of others would as well.

Order special code ZR1-R or Z06-R with factory interior delete, add WRF (World Racing Federation- my fictitious sanctioning body made up of manufacturers, former drivers, etc rule approved roll cage, splitter, slicks, etc; and go racing in “WRF Pure GT”.
Want to go racing with that Aquila CR1, Mosler, Pagani, Gumpert, and Radical, try “WRF Open GT”

I think we will have to agree to disagree, I think your concept of racing is bolonie, and I know what you think of mine.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by JAG

The one exception I would make, and it's the one some dislike, are cases like BMW, if they want to compete in GTE I do think it's correct to give them enough performance breaks to ensure a car like the M3 is competitive, their entry has been an overwhelming plus for the class.

The real problem is that this particular waiver-filled BMW is dominating the class, yet from year to year it's allowed to run with massive air restrictors that are bigger than Ferrari's, Corvette's and Porsche's

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

That's not logical. If they have an inferior car, they either have to develop a new road car (most likely a homologation special) or stop competing. The former leads to an explosion of costs, the latter leads to a one make series.

Which one of these cars is inferior?

Porsche 911 GT3 RS: 1:36.77
Chevrolet Corvette Z06: 1:34.43
Audi R8 GT: 1:36.39
Ferrari 458 Italia: 1:36.22
GT-R: 1:36.35
Lexus LFA: 1:36.39
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG: 1:38.82

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by JAG

I don't mind BoP in GT3, it's a series aimed at gentleman drivers, all that matters is the cars are cool, have equal performance and are affordable (something that isn't being addresed).

When it comes to GTE, BoP should be kept to a minimum, manufactuers should have a greater influence on the performance of the cars than the rule makers.

The one exception I would make, and it's the one some dislike, are cases like BMW, if they want to compete in GTE I do think it's correct to give them enough performance breaks to ensure a car like the M3 is competitive, their entry has been an overwhelming plus for the class.

So you’re cool with a V8 powered rear wheel drive Chevy Cruze in GT3 and GTE.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by kyoung

Which one of these cars is inferior?

Porsche 911 GT3 RS: 1:36.77
Chevrolet Corvette Z06: 1:34.43
Audi R8 GT: 1:36.39
Ferrari 458 Italia: 1:36.22
GT-R: 1:36.35
Lexus LFA: 1:36.39
Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG: 1:38.82

Just a guess, but maybe the ones that are two seconds slower than the fastest one?

[Speed-King]

I think we will have to agree to disagree, I think your concept of racing is bolonie, and I know what you think of mine.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see what you propose, I just don't think it's viable.

To loosely quote Winston Churchill: BoP is like democracy -It's a horribly system, but all the others are even worse...

[Joe Taylor]

Originally Posted by kyoung

Really, then why have 200 mph road cars with carbon brakes that manufacturers insist on testing at the Ring?

The only safe way for owners to test the limits of a car is on a track, regardless of whether they want to race them or not. Why do you think track days are so popular?

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Just a guess, but maybe the ones that are two seconds slower than the fastest one?

The Vette has soft compound “Cup” tires or it would be right there with every other car. The tubby SLS just needs to shed a few pounds, not an insurmountable feat for Mercedes. They might even run the new convert with a hard top like the BMW Z4 GT3. All the other cars are within a half second, so basically nothing inferior here, in fact very competitive.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see what you propose, I just don't think it's viable.

To loosely quote Winston Churchill: BoP is like democracy -It's a horribly system, but all the others are even worse...

Oh it’s viable; it’s just not going to happen.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by kyoung

So you’re cool with a V8 powered rear wheel drive Chevy Cruze in GT3 and GTE.

The M3 is V8 powered and rwd in road car form, so a direct 911 rival.

Originally Posted by kyoung

The Vette has soft compound “Cup” tires or it would be right there with every other car. The tubby SLS just needs to shed a few pounds, not an insurmountable feat for Mercedes. They might even run the new convert with a hard top like the BMW Z4 GT3. All the other cars are within a half second, so basically nothing inferior here, in fact very competitive.

Once you make a change here, a change there, it's not long before you end up with what amounts to a race car.

If you adheared strictly to racing road cars, it's only a matter of time before someone builds a race car for the road, then it moves away from it's original focus.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by JAG

The M3 is V8 powered and rwd in road car form, so a direct 911 rival.Once you make a change here, a change there, it's not long before you end up with what amounts to a race car.

If you adheared strictly to racing road cars, it's only a matter of time before someone builds a race car for the road, then it moves away from it's original focus.

In the WTCC the Cruze is a direct rival (Can you be a rival if one car wins all the races?) of the BMW 320 which is the same platform as the M3. So you wouldn’t grudge them a waiver for a different engine right? I mean while we’re on the slippery slope anything should go to fill grids.

First of all, which 911 are you talking about? I have not seen any comparisons where the Porky doesn’t give the M3 a good view of its tail lights. Hell an M3 can hardly best a solid axle Mustang GT these days.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by JAG

If you adheared strictly to racing road cars, it's only a matter of time before someone builds a race car for the road, then it moves away from it's original focus.

Well I don’t know how much of the thread you have read so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. The fact they are for the street is a balance in itself. Earlier I stated that there should be a minimum number of cars for sale, I mentioned at least five hundred, could be more depending on what all the manufacturers agreed to. So if that manufacturer thinks he can sell five hundred or more road-going race cars…get to it.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by JAG

If you adheared strictly to racing road cars, it's only a matter of time before someone builds a race car for the road, then it moves away from it's original focus.

You mean the Dodge/Plymouth Daytona/Superbird weren't raced to promote their new styling but were designed/built to win races even though they couldn't give them away at dealerships?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by kyoung

In the WTCC the Cruze is a direct rival (Can you be a rival if one car wins all the races?) of the BMW 320 which is the same platform as the M3. So you wouldn’t grudge them a waiver for a different engine right? I mean while we’re on the slippery slope anything should go to fill grids.

First of all, which 911 are you talking about? I have not seen any comparisons where the Porky doesn’t give the M3 a good view of its tail lights. Hell an M3 can hardly best a solid axle Mustang GT these days.

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...ts_review.html

Originally Posted by kyoung

Well I don’t know how much of the thread you have read so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. The fact they are for the street is a balance in itself. Earlier I stated that there should be a minimum number of cars for sale, I mentioned at least five hundred, could be more depending on what all the manufacturers agreed to. So if that manufacturer thinks he can sell five hundred or more road-going race cars…get to it.

Manufactuers were prepared to build 5000 cars, many of which they struggled to sell, to have a competitive advantage in Group A, well, one was, Lancia, with the Delta Integrale. Few had the resources to challenge so ultimately the WRC class was created, it allowed manufactuers to take a regular road car and add parts required to be competitive in Group A, i.e 4wd, turbo etc.

What you saw with Group A was not the best road cars winning, it was a case of who had a big enough budget to absord the costs of homologation special road car production, giving them guaranteed success on the stages.

[kyoung]

[QUOTE=JAG;2996757]http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...ts_review.html[QUOTE]

How long did it take you to find a track special Bimmer limited to 150 cars worldwide?

Did you even read what Monkeyboy wrote…

"But it struggles for traction next to the Porsche, doesn’t steer as sweetly and isn’t as fast - in a straight line or in terms of lap time."

Here is some reality for you…

Mustang vs. M3

And it’s not even the Boss Mustang, but the M3 is one you could buy.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The M3 is V8 powered and rwd in road car form, so a direct 911 rival.Once you make a change here, a change there, it's not long before you end up with what amounts to a race car.

So is a Ford Crown Victoria a direct 911 and 458 rival then too? If so, BoP it and let's see it go for victory! That's the stupidity of it which leads to...

Originally Posted by Chiana

The real problem is that this particular waiver-filled BMW is dominating the class, yet from year to year it's allowed to run with massive air restrictors that are bigger than Ferrari's, Corvette's and Porsche's

...racing determined by politics. Restrictor size determined by who buys the most TV ads during races or whatever crazy criteria the series come up with. Could more road-based GT racing lead to less variety? Perhaps, but remember that most GTE teams are privateers and the ones who choose oddballs are doing so fully realizing the risk that they won't get factory development parts and so forth. And they won't be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to politicking to overcome those disadvantages. Whether it be with GTs in the past or modern day LMPs, there are always privateers willing to try an oddball or two. Some people would rather lose doing things their way than win doing it other people's way. And I don't think you can automatically assume that the results would be constant blowouts. Late full course yellows aside, the racing between Audi and Peugeot was closer than it was in GTE most of the time even with the BoP as far as I can tell.

[Speed-King]

LMP is much more spec-ed than GT, though.

Yes, it's not outright spec (actually far from it), but the cars are very similar in their design as both are mid-engined Diesel-powered Coupes built to the same baseweight and both started with a clean slate rather than a compromised roadcar platform.

So that's not really the best comparison...

[JAG]

How long did it take you to find a track special Bimmer limited to 150 cars worldwide?

Did you even read what Monkeyboy wrote…

"But it struggles for traction next to the Porsche, doesn’t steer as sweetly and isn’t as fast - in a straight line or in terms of lap time."

Here is some reality for you…

Mustang vs. M3

And it’s not even the Boss Mustang, but the M3 is one you could buy.

Not sure why you're suprised the M3 is now seen as a 911 rival from the base model upto the range topping GTS.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m3+...ient=firefox-a

Same goes for the Mustang reference, Saleen Mustangs ran in GT2 in the '90's, some have been seen in GT3, the latest Camaro is heading there too with Reiter. In GT2/E M3's have a long history, the Vauxhall Monaro ran, and there's been various rumours of the Lexus ISF, Merc CLK and Cadilac CTS-V running.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

LMP is much more spec-ed than GT, though.

Yes, it's not outright spec (actually far from it), but the cars are very similar in their design as both are mid-engined Diesel-powered Coupes built to the same baseweight and both started with a clean slate rather than a compromised roadcar platform.

So that's not really the best comparison...

It may not be the best comparison, but it works. Where would you expect closer racing? In a class where you have two different factory prototypes competing or a BoP class where you have multiple Ferrari teams, multiple Porsche teams, and a factory BMW team (plus Corvette if you want to count Le Mans/ALMS)?

Heck, even in the ALMS, the two car LMP1 battles were often better than the ALMS GT battles both in the race and in qualifying. Ok, there weren't any late yellow dashes for cash in the LMP1 class like there was in GT, but the beginning and middle stages of the races in LMP1 were often quite epic. At Road America, where there wasn't a late yellow I don't think, we did see a barnburner of a race between the Dyson #16 and the Cytosport Aston. The GT race was a blowout by that point. Ok, a lot of the reasons for bad GT/GTE racing worldwide in 2011 was caused by GT drivers and teams making amateur hour mistakes almost every race, but that happens. Granted, as far as ALMS P1 goes, it could be argued that is a BoP class too.

Originally Posted by JAG

Same goes for the Mustang reference, Saleen Mustangs ran in GT2 in the '90's, some have been seen in GT3, the latest Camaro is heading there too with Reiter. In GT2/E M3's have a long history, the Vauxhall Monaro ran, and there's been various rumours of the Lexus ISF, Merc CLK and Cadilac CTS-V running.

If a well-funded factory team run by ultra professionals run up against mainly privateers and need mega BoP and waivers just to compete, that is a sign that your car is a square peg in a class that should be for round peg cars.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by JAG

Not sure why you're suprised the M3 is now seen as a 911 rival from the base model upto the range topping GTS.

Listen I have nothing against BMW, I owned a 6 series myself years ago, but I have never thought of BMW coupes and sedans as rivals for sports cars. The closest thing they have to a sports car now is the Z4 another car that races with an engine that you can’t find in the road car. BMW would better serve their cause if they would just build a damn sports car like the M1 or Z8 instead of something more suited to touring car racing. Instead they insist on fighting above their weight with real sports cars and they need a massive amount of waivers to be competitive. Ultimate driving machine my arse, more myth perpetuated by BoP.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by JAG

Same goes for the Mustang reference, Saleen Mustangs ran in GT2 in the '90's, some have been seen in GT3, the latest Camaro is heading there too with Reiter. In GT2/E M3's have a long history, the Vauxhall Monaro ran, and there's been various rumours of the Lexus ISF, Merc CLK and Cadilac CTS-V running.

Yes the Mustang did race in GT, but, and this is just my opinion, they are more suited to Trans Am racing. Another mythical series I would like to start because I think it would be a natural for the Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, M3, Audi A or S whatever, Buick GS, upcoming Caddy ATS, Holden Monaro, Ford Falcon, and others I can’t think of off the top of my head.

Although I think if Cadillac wants to seriously flaunt that “Standard of the World” they need a serious and sustained P1 effort to be taken seriously. Again, just an opinion, I don’t expect any of this to happen because it makes too much sense, to me anyway.

[Mt. Lynx]

Do you like V8 Supercars much? Maybe that´s the series for you...

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

Do you like V8 Supercars much? Maybe that´s the series for you...

Thanks for your suggestion, not really (at least in the direction it’s going), just trying to be inclusive of marques/cars that I thought would be good for a Trans Am type series.