Is Micheal Schumacher simply the best f-1 driver ever?

[Jordi]

OK, here's my explanation

The Benetton B195 was not as good in stability as the Williams FW17. But that was resolved by Schumacher's ability to "drive a car to the limit with a less stable rear" as Rory Byrne says.
Benetton had to adapt to the Renault V10 which vibrated more than the Ford Zetec V8, creating problems in the fuel pumps and other components.

Williams had the fastest car. Not by a lot, but Schumacher only got 4 poles. What really made Benetton and Schumacher dominant were their strategies combined with Hill's, Coulthard's and Williams' mistakes.

Granted, the B195 was the second-best car in the grid, but the B194, even with the Ford engine, was much better than the Williams, most notably at the start of 1994.

And as I read in an interview with Adrian Newey, he said that "he liked the FW17 because it was the 'father' of the championship winning 1996-97 cars"

[Lee Janotta]

Hmm... A very well-reasoned and valid argument, Jordi.

I still have to disagree that '95 Benneton wasn't top-notch, though, even if the tail was a little loose.

On the subject of the poles, I think we've seen this year as well that the Williams team is very strong at setting up their cars for qualifying, but seem to lose some speed in race trim. Schumacher, on the other hand, has always been better in the race than in qualifying. So I don't think that stat shows much.

And as you've said, the Williams drivers threw away a some wins by their own mistakes.

Here's how I'd break down Schumacher's cars:

'92 Benneton: Second to the Williams, but by a country mile. A lot better than the McLaren, though.
'93 Benneton: Likewise.
'94 Benneton: As good a chassis as the Williams. Less powerful engine, but the team cheated with traction and launch control, and the modified fuel hose.
'95 Benneton: Practically even with the Williams. A negligible advantage to Williams, same engine.
'96 Ferrari: Absolute garbage.
'97 Ferrari: 3rd-best car, Williams and Benneton far better.
'98 Ferrari: Not up to the McLaren's pace, better than the Williams.
'99 Ferrari: Likewise.
'00 Ferrari: Dead even with the McLaren.
'01 Ferrari: Better engine than the McLaren, better chassis than Williams.
'02 Ferrari: Can this thing be _any_ faster???

[paulzinho]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
'94 Benneton: As good a chassis as the Williams. Less powerful engine, but the team cheated with traction and launch control, and the modified fuel hose.

Hmmm the 94 Williams initially had a poor design, it was very twitchy and very hard to drive, Newey later admitted it was terrible and that improvements were on the way when Senna was killed, Senna put that car on pole, a place it should never have been. Not in those first few races anyway.

[Number Juan]

this thread is ludicrous - how can you compare drivers of different ages with different cars and different tracks and say that one was better than anyone?! its impossible and foolish to say yes and point out "the best" driver - you can only pick a handful of top-notch drivers.

te reason i say its foolish because each driver had to handle different extremeties: could schumacher bomb around the old Spa-Francorchamps circuit as fast as Jim Clark (who isn't as good as Schuey according to several members here)? and likewise could Jim Clark cope with the ultra-high speeds and cornering forces exerted on F1 drivers today? and this is where you get the problem. Stats can only tell you so much of the story - everyone has their preferences as to who was the best therefore stats are stats - they only tell you how good comparitavely they are. one driver may have better stats than the next, but intervening factors like fatalities, speed and racecraft rule out pointing out who the best really is.

theres no doubt Senna was one of the quickest drivers ever - quicker than Schuey and if his fatality hadn't occured in 94' would we be in the same position today asking wether Schumacher is the greatest? on the other hand, Jim Clark (from what i have gathered) had a fondness to hit the exact blade of grass at exactly the same speed lap after lap so consistently it was almost supernatural - he was undoubtedly the most precise driver ever, but is he as good as the gun-ho gutsy driving of Mansell or Villeneuve?

you see stats say that Villeneuve wasn't a trumendously great driver but we all know him as one of the best drivers ever. this is why asking wether Scumacher is the best is not only foolish but embarassing.

[Lee Janotta]

Actually Number Juan, I agree wholeheartedly. For me, the following drivers sit on a plateau above all others in terms of sheer driving ability:

Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Tazio Nuvolari
Bernd Rosemeyer
Jack Brabham
Jim Clark
Gilles Villeneuve
Stefan Belloff
Aryton Senna

And comparisons among them are meaningless. They drove different cars on different tracks in different eras, but what they all had in common was that they were the absolutely best (although Belloff and Villeneuve, who died young, never really got to show just how good they were).

BUT... Some people, PARTICULARLY SCHUMACHER FANS, insist that one driver is greater than all the others.

As was suggested, there may be a Formula 0 for the greatest drivers who've passed on... If there is, it's the most hotly contested championship around.

[Lee Janotta]

[Jordi]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
'92 Benneton: Second to the Williams, but by a country mile. A lot better than the McLaren, though.
'93 Benneton: Likewise.
'94 Benneton: As good a chassis as the Williams. Less powerful engine, but the team cheated with traction and launch control, and the modified fuel hose.
'95 Benneton: Practically even with the Williams. A negligible advantage to Williams, same engine.
'96 Ferrari: Absolute garbage.
'97 Ferrari: 3rd-best car, Williams and Benneton far better.
'98 Ferrari: Not up to the McLaren's pace, better than the Williams.
'99 Ferrari: Likewise.
'00 Ferrari: Dead even with the McLaren.
'01 Ferrari: Better engine than the McLaren, better chassis than Williams.
'02 Ferrari: Can this thing be _any_ faster???

My view
-B192: better than the McLaren, but miles away the FW14
-B193: on a par with the McLaren almost
-B194: Better than the Williams, at the start of the year
-B195: Williams slightly better.
-F310: 3rd best car, some races very close to Williams, some very far.
-F310B: Second best. Williams just slightly better
-F300: Second best. partnership with goodyear helps a lot
-F399: Closer to the McLaren, more reliable
-F1-2000: Almost even to the McLaren, more reliable, so best car
-F2001: best car out there, Williams-McLaren very close
-F2002: Dominant car, Bridgestone helps

[Gt_R]

Strange how all of you claim this is one done-to-death thread, rub it off as pointless...and then go about debating about it again...

Honestly, this thing will keep popping up...and never can we have a concrete conclusion. As for people who say that Schumacher fans are blinded and would insist that their driver is the best ever...

Official statement from Gt_R released today:
Michael Schumacher is one of the most brilliant drivers ever to grace the sport. Talented, quick and all rounded...there is no room to doubt his abilities. Best ever? Maybe...maybe not. We can never say. At least, i would never say. But why MUST we have a best ever? Can't we not just enjoy the greatness of each individual driver. He had some of the best cars and some of the worse, and experienced some of the best conditions and some of the worse, yet he shone in them all... that doesn't make him better than the past greats...but neither does it make him worse. *chuckle*


With Lee's analysis of the cars Schumacher has...i think he got quite a good picture of what i feel. I just want to say, the 96 Ferrari is indeed a poor machine... design flaws, reliability woes, and their first V10 seriously underpowered...sigh.

PS. Oops..now i'm in the mud too...

[Dani Filth]

Originally posted by Kex


It was a McLaren M23. And it wasn't the best car. Lauda's Ferrari was much better.

ups ...my mistake ... but Hunt .. is an example how you can "inherit" a WDC ... like Hakki in 99 ...

[Dani Filth]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Actually Number Juan, I agree wholeheartedly. For me, the following drivers sit on a plateau above all others in terms of sheer driving ability:

Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Tazio Nuvolari
Bernd Rosemeyer
Jack Brabham
Jim Clark
Gilles Villeneuve
Stefan Belloff
Aryton Senna

BUT... Some people, PARTICULARLY SCHUMACHER FANS, insist that one driver is greater than all the others.

I'm a Michael Schumacher fan but i don't insist that he's greatest .... and in the list of yours .. i'll put also Caracciolla

[Gt_R]

I din't really have the fortune to witness drivers like Fangio and Rose, which i deeply regret. Hence, i really appreciate this moment where i can see with my own eyes a great driver doing his stuff on track - in Michael. Because 30 years down the road, i could tell my kids: "Pop isn't there with Fangio did his fiver...but i'm with Schumacher with his 5th." And by the way, i guess the older generation of "fans" shouldn't brush off opinions of the younger generation of fans simply because they aren't as lucky as them to witness the skinny wheels and old Nurby.

Despite all these i do try to get as much clips i can find on these past greats...and never once do i doubt that they no good... all this despite the fact that i support Schumacher as the best driver of his generation.

[Legend]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
For me, the following drivers sit on a plateau above all others in terms of sheer driving ability:

Juan Manuel Fangio
Alberto Ascari
Tazio Nuvolari
Bernd Rosemeyer
Jack Brabham
Jim Clark
Gilles Villeneuve
Stefan Belloff
Aryton Senna

BUT... Some people, PARTICULARLY SCHUMACHER FANS, insist that one driver is greater than all the others.

Lee Janotta are drivers like Caracciolla, Prost and Schumacher not on the plateau you just mentioned there? :confused:

[Jordi]

Hey it's his opinion, Schumacher doesn't have to be on Lee's list!

[Legend]

Originally posted by Jordi
Hey it's his opinion, Schumacher doesn't have to be on Lee's list!

It is funny you did not mention Caracciolla or Prost! Like "Hey it's his opinion,Caracciolla Prost or Schumacher don't have to be on Lee's list!

[Tye]

Legend,

I'd say Schumacher would be lucky to be in the top five.

On sheer driving talent,I'd say that the drivers who drove clean cars,without drivers aids such as traction and launch control,active suspension and so on, would have to be rated as the best.In that list I'd say in no particular order:

Gilles Villeneuve
Jim Clark
Alberto Ascari
Juan Manuel Fangio
Stirling Moss

I've left out Nuvolari and Rosemeyer because I just haven't watched enough video on them and it would be hard to make a reasonable assessment.I don't want you to get me wrong though,they were both very talented drivers for their time.

I'm just curious Legend.

Ever heard of Tad Czapski?

Tye

[Number Juan]

Originally posted by Legend


It is funny you did not mention Caracciolla or Prost! Like "Hey it's his opinion,Caracciolla Prost or Schumacher don't have to be on Lee's list!

it is because he's trying to get to the heart of the argument - you use prost and Coco-wots-his-name as a sheild to ask "why isn't schumacher on there?"

just because you love Michael Schumacher and have posters plastered on the walls and kiss them all before you go to bed, doesn't mean everybody has to or every has to put him on their lists!!!

this is what i've been saying, trying to create a top 5 or number one driver is not possible - everyone has differing opinions as to who the best was. personally my list would be much different to yours and to many peoples' here - because i only started watching F1 properly in 99' but had been watching it casually since i can remember and so my top drivers are based on reading about certain drivers. some people base their best on older generations or the "golden era" of motorsport and F1 - not the 70's 80's or 90's.

im leaving this thread - im sick of all this "ooh my drivers better than your driver" attitude thats going on...we get enough of this after every grand prix.

[Lee Janotta]

Schumacher, not on because I just don't think his driving is that "Oh my God I've never seen anyone do that with a car race car!" good, which all the others on my list are.

Likewise with Prost, who's out because he was hopeless in the rain.

Carraciola, it was close, but I do rank both Nuvolari and Rosemeyer above him, and since the drivers on this plateau are supposed to be equal...

Tye, I'd just like to suggest a few sources for you to learn about Rosemeyer and Nuvolari. There's a Nuvolari tribute video on www.seasonf1.com. It's pretty good, though the song that accompanies it is absolutely intolerable. I suggest using an MP3 of "Hemmorage" by Fuel as an alternate soundtrack when viewing, it syncs beautifully with the action if you start both together.

These two pages, from Dennis David's magnificent site, give you all the great mythology of these two true heros.

http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/rose_bio.htm

http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/story...of%20a%20Giant

Reading those, you should understand why these two are considered so great.

[Jordi]

Exactly, NJ, Legend, you seem more keen on having Schumacher in everyone's list

[f1manoz]

Originally posted by Legend
Is Micheal Schumacher simply the best f-1 driver ever?

Simple, one-word response would be completely adequate:

NO!!

[Champ69]

Originally posted by Baritone24
Is Micheal Schumacher simply the best f-1 driver ever?.

YES

[Tye]

Lee Janotta,

I've a few good books and magazines which have several stories on the two of them and others of that era.

Also,I have visited the Dennis David site you had mentioned,it is one of the sites I have bookmarked.Thanks for the post anyways,I appreciate that.

I tried to access the video but had no luck.I have one video from that site and it has both Nuvolari and Gilles Villeneuve racing planes.Is that the one you are speaking of?

The link is here,I'm not sure if it will connect you though,it is always busy.

http://www.seasonf1.com/archivio/nu...vola gilles.asf

By the way,I like your signature.

Tye

[Chris Gray]

No. You have to take into account the fact that Fangio et al had to drive in the knowledge that one small mistake could be their last. Still good though.

[Lee Janotta]

No, that's not the video, Tye. The one I suggested was just some vintage footage. Shows how out of shape Nuvolari could get a car and still save it, though.

Seems that site has some _major_ bandwidth problems.

Actually, I've seen very little footage of Rosemeyer, but how many other drivers have ever driven the Nurburgring in a V-16 AutoUnion with their foot flat to the floor, wheels in opposite lock, in fog so thick they could barely see the turn before they were in it?

I think to be considered _truly_ great as a driver, you have to have a legend about you. Nuvolari and Rosemeyer _are_ legends. Senna has Donnington '93, and he and Belloff both have Monaco '84, and the young German has his death at Spa, trying to overtake Ickx around the outside of Eau Rouge. Gilles has the Dijon '79 battle with Arnoux, and the blown tire, save, and drive back to the pits an Zandvoort that year that my sig quote comes from. Fangio has the '57 German GP. And there are so many others...

Prost, Schumacher... They don't have legends. They never did anything that made everyone watching them stare in absolute amazement, believing what they just did was impossible in a race car. Schumacher still has time, but I don't think it'll happen...

The fact that Nuvolari and Rosemeyer both gave the German Nazi party headaches is an added bonus.

[senna12]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
I think to be considered _truly_ great as a driver, you have to have a legend about you. Nuvolari and Rosemeyer _are_ legends. Senna has Donnington '93, and he and Belloff both have Monaco '84, and the young German has his death at Spa, trying to overtake Ickx around the outside of Eau Rouge. Gilles has the Dijon '79 battle with Arnoux, and the blown tire, save, and drive back to the pits an Zandvoort that year that my sig quote comes from. Fangio has the '57 German GP. And there are so many others...

Prost, Schumacher... They don't have legends. They never did anything that made everyone watching them stare in absolute amazement, believing what they just did was impossible in a race car. Schumacher still has time, but I don't think it'll happen...

The fact that Nuvolari and Rosemeyer both gave the German Nazi party headaches is an added bonus.

This is very well put, and has meaning. Well done Lee.

How about Ayrton in Brazil, 1991, the last 8 or 9 laps with 6th gear only?

Or Gilles in Spain, 1981, driving a tank of a car, leading Laffite, Watson, Reutemann, and de Angelis across the line after a race long battle.

[Tye]

Legend,

Well,since I asked this question of Legend and haven't had a reply as of yet, I will post this for any Michael Schumacher fan.

F1 Racing September 1998

Ferrari's latest trick...

THE SECRET BEHIND Ferrari's speed is a Polish electronics whizz by the name of Tad Czapski.He was part of the inner cabal at Benetton in the team's championship years(1994 and '95),a clique which comprised Schumacher,Ross Brawn,and Rory Byrne,all of whom are now at Ferrari.Czapski keeps a low profile,spending race weekends behind closed doors cogitating over a lap-top computer to which only a select few team members are allowed access.

Most paddock insiders believe that Ferrari have been operating a creative interpretation of FIA rule 9.5(which states:"Traction control is forbidden").In F1 Racing,,June,we published a picture of Schumacher's Ferrari,taken by Darren Heath at Imola,which showed a single glowing rear brake disc,a tell-tale sign of selective braking(a system pioneered by McLaren and banned at Interlagos,two races previous to Imola).As soon as this picture had been published,F1 Racing was beseiged by phone calls from F1 technical directors,all wanting to know where,exactly the picture had been taken.No doubt about it,the F1 world suspected sharp practice,yet the FIA did nothing.

By Silverstone,those same technical directors were suggesting,off the record,of course,that Ferrari had another traction control-enhancing gizmo:an engine-mapping device that minimised wheelspin.

In yet another,F1 Racing exclusive,Darren Heath's lens has captured the key moment.The picture below shows Tad Czapski plugging his lap-top into Schumacher's Ferrari in Austria,seconds before the start.A Maranello insider has revealed to F1 Racing that Czapski's lap-top is used only on Schumacher's car,and that it controls the F300's engine-mapping.It all adds up,doesn't it?

We'll be keeping tabs on Tad from now on.

I wonder why Schumacher is the only one to have access to Tad's resources.I think this also explains why Johnny Herbert was never allowed access to Schumacher's telemetry while the two were at Benetton.

I wish Legend were here to explain all of this.

Tye